Chris Boonzaier Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Guys... I dont give a crp about Becher... or about arguments... so I suggest everyone edit their posts to a friendly tone or I will flush all posts made after the time this post went to sleep a few years ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 You are welcome for the "sermon", Don. Do appreciate, however, that my sermon was short and did not require any kneeling, so it was pretty painless. $17K? Well, there you have it, Mike. Perhaps you should hold out for someone offering $17K then. My opinion is that it is worth $15K, therefore that is all that I would (and am) offering. Just a thought... because this goes over and above just this item.... Someone tossing in a statement "I am willing to pay 15 000" for this does not make it worth 15 000. It is what it is worth to you, plain and simple.... if the next one came on the market and the next potential buyer would only pay 10 000... then it would then be worth 10 000? And if 3 weeks later someone would pay 20 000 ... it is then worth 20 000? What one person is willing to pay for an item that rare is not market value. We have seen rare things go on ebay for 1 200 one week... then 600 the next.... has little to do with market value. Art, dont know you from a hole in the ground.... you could even be the original owner trying to push the price for all I know... so I respect your right to quote 15 000 as the value... but you have to respect my right to think "Yeah... whatever..." For me you need a bit more street cred here to go around setting market values... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) Just a thought... because this goes over and above just this item.... Someone tossing in a statement "I am willing to pay 15 000" for this does not make it worth 15 000. It is what it is worth to you, plain and simple.... if the next one came on the market and the next potential buyer would only pay 10 000... then it would then be worth 10 000? And if 3 weeks later someone would pay 20 000 ... it is then worth 20 000? What one person is willing to pay for an item that rare is not market value. We have seen rare things go on ebay for 1 200 one week... then 600 the next.... has little to do with market value. Art, dont know you from a hole in the ground.... you could even be the original owner trying to push the price for all I know... so I respect your right to quote 15 000 as the value... but you have to respect my right to think "Yeah... whatever..." For me you need a bit more street cred here to go around setting market values... Chris- That is the point. NO ONE knows the true "value" of this item, as they just never come around. I was not suggesting, by any means, that my offer "defines a market" (that would be abject arrogance). What ever gave you that impression? That was certainly not my intent. I am not Mike (who is selling the goblet). I collect many items, but am particularly interested in the PLM. Therefore this is not some weird "plug" by the seller. The seller was KIND ENOUGH to allow us to post images of his goblet. I am just thrilled to have a chance to take a look at one. Aren't you? We can all learn about this piece a little more when someone posts pictures and allows examination of the item. I find that fun. I was able to track down the matching silver stamps (which was entertaining) to a specific company. I am simply saying that $15K is what I AM OFFERING. Why? Because I think it is worth that much TO ME. That is what the price of nearly all military items comes down to. I put up this offer IN PUBLIC such that anyone thinking about low balling Mike (as with the $10K value he was quoted by an auction house) would be unable to do so. If someone thought it was worth more TO THEM, they would have the opportunity to offer the man that amount. I told Mike I thought that was what it was worth BEFORE HE SAID HE WAS SELLING IT and asked that he contact me if he ever decided to sell it. If one thinks that is the value when it is not for sale, then that should be the value when IT IS FOR SALE. If Mike accepts my offer, I would be thrilled. If he does not, I would offer that anyone else agreeing to buy the piece would come across this link and have that number as a minimum price for sale. I think you misinterpreted my offer as in that - a. KNOWING the value of this item - NO ONE DOES. I DON'T KNOW. I "guessed" based upon ehrenbecher values b. assuming that my offer is a "market value" If, per chance, another Thor goblet came up for sale, I am sure that someone will come across our discussions in making an esitmate of price they would ask for the piece. That is just good sense. Such a piece would probably be engraved with the city and date, so it would be worth more. Would I buy it? Yes, I probably would. How much would I offer? Probably between $20-25K; if it had the certificate, probably $25-30K. But that is just me. Maybe the guy on this site who owns the "London" goblet would see that number and think, "Holy crap, I am going to sell!" Or he think, "Holy crap, my goblet is worth more than that!" To review, given that there are other sales of ehrenbechers, I would say that 1. a regular old ehrenbercher is about $10K 2. an ehrenbecher to a PLM recipient is about $15K 3. An 835 silver ehrenpokal to an RK recipient is about $9K There was an interesting "privately made" ehrenbecher with an eagle base, given to a PLM recipient by members of his squadron, which sold at one of the German auction houses two months ago for $5K, as I recall. It was a pretty cool piece, yet is "one of a kind" (unlike the Thor goblet- since there are other "awards", I think the Thor goblet would be worth quite a bit more). Did anyone know the value? No- the starting bid was 1800 euros. Would anyone like to get back to discussing this very interesting and rare goblet? That is why I am here, not to argue prices with people. The price is a SIDE ISSUE for a man (a retired military guy who has a grandkid going to college) who like to get the best price for his piece. Edited July 11, 2012 by art wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncbulldogusa Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 JUST TO MAKE THE RECORD OPEN AN ABOVEBOARD BASED ON A SPURIOUS STATMENT BY THE REGIONAL ADMINISRATOR "Art, dont know you from a hole in the ground.... you could even be the original owner trying to push the price for all I know... so I respect your right to quote 15 000 as the value... but you have to respect my right to think "Yeah... whatever..."" I am not Art Wall ...... I am ncbulldogusa and I have never met Art Wall in any manner before posting on this board... I own the item in question. also I AM NOT SPOCK " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 JUST TO MAKE THE RECORD OPEN AN ABOVEBOARD BASED ON A SPURIOUS STATMENT BY THE REGIONAL ADMINISRATOR Hi ncbuldog Frankly, when folks have been members for long enough you know who is who.... until then... the 19 year old big boobed surfer girl from Florida I could potentially have chatted with last night... could just have potentially have been a 63 year old balding guy in Chicago... posing as a 19 year old big boobed surfer girl. So... as I said... not knowing either of you from a hole in the ground... I reserve the right not to accept opions "just like that"... Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 ... the 19 year old big boobed surfer girl from Florida I could potentially have chatted with last night... could just have potentially have been a 63 year old balding guy in Chicago... posing as a 19 year old big boobed surfer girl. Best Chris Was that you Chris?!?! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Was that you Chris?!?! Ha ha... you have nothing on me... I realised it was you before I started talking dirty!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Ha ha... you have nothing on me... I realised it was you before I started talking dirty!! it's still $2.99/min. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) Hi ncbuldog Frankly, when folks have been members for long enough you know who is who.... until then... the 19 year old big boobed surfer girl from Florida I could potentially have chatted with last night... could just have potentially have been a 63 year old balding guy in Chicago... posing as a 19 year old big boobed surfer girl. So... as I said... not knowing either of you from a hole in the ground... I reserve the right not to accept opions "just like that"... Best Chris Ouch! That image of a 63 year old guy in a bikini is now going to be stuck in my mind. I think I will need a little therapy to get that removed from my brain. I am sure I will be okay in a few years. Edited July 11, 2012 by art wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Even I didn't see that coming...... I have to go wash my imagination now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Even I didn't see that coming...... I have to go wash my imagination now. Better put that on "scour" cycle, as I still have a little sense of nausea and think it may just take some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) So it appears as though the discussion is completed on this goblet, for which there are only 8-9 other examples known to exist. I guess that is it. No comments or concerns, despite the fact that the silver hallmarks point to a different manufacturer than the other two images posted on the net? I personally like this goblet. However, I am a litte surprised that very few had any comments about the goblet itself. No one knows about these; with a knowledge of ehrenbechers, we should be able to evaluate and draw some conclusions on a very similar award. Edited July 14, 2012 by art wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 So it appears as though the discussion is completed on this goblet, for which there are only 8-9 other examples known to exist. I guess that is it. No comments or concerns, despite the fact that the silver hallmarks point to a different manufacturer than the other two images posted on the net? I personally like this goblet. However, I am a litte surprised that very few had any comments about the goblet itself. No one knows about these; with a knowledge of ehrenbechers, we should be able to evaluate and draw some conclusions on a very similar award. May i ask you how many "Ehrenbecher fuer Angriffe aus der Luft" you ever seen? Do you ever had one in your hand? Regards Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) May i ask you how many "Ehrenbecher fuer Angriffe aus der Luft" you ever seen? Do you ever had one in your hand? Regards Alex NONE. It is like asking how many Mona Lisa paintings I have examined. I am afraid that there are just not that many out there to have a great deal of experience for anyone. That is why I think it is interesting to discuss such a piece. I have had, and do have, several ehrenbechers. With a knowledge of the ehrenbecher, we can make some inferences about the Thor goblets and learn from an object "in hand". These Thor goblets apparently were made by some of the same silver shops that made the ehrenbechers. For instance, the Thor goblet in question here appears to bear the hallmarks of Brueckmann & Soehne, who made some of the known ehrenbechers. We can make SOME CONCLUSIONS by comparing with ehrenbechers of known firms. It is interesting that the other goblet posted on this thread came from a different silver shop. This, of course, is the case with ehrenbechers as well. There has been the suggestion that Wagner designed both the ehrenbecher and the Thor goblet. Did they they "farm out" the design to many different silver shops for production? it is obvious, through the catalog of german silver stamps, that there were several shops that made the ehrenbechers. If they were made by wagner, why no "W" hallmark stamp anywhere? Edited July 15, 2012 by art wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 PS- I do not claim to be an "expert" or authority on ehrenbechers by any means. I just posted some of my observations and beliefs and hoped that others would post as well. It has been stated that Wagner and possibly Godet are the makers of the ehrenbecher. Is there any firm evidence of this? Also, the eagle stamp is the old city stamp for Heilbronn. Is there any association or evidence to suggest that the goblets were made there, or is this just coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 So, what happened? Did someone actually buy this thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 After further consideration, Mike decided to keep the goblet. It was nice to see the images and I am glad that he allowed them to be posted for examination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Mike had sent me the goblet to analyze (thanks!) and it was pretty interesting. Using magnification, I was able to determine that "Manchester" and the date "20.10.1917" was engraved into the "blank" plate, yet had been removed by abrasion at some point in the past. Therefore, the goblet was not blank at all, yet shows another "raid" which has not previously been shown on Thor Ehrenbechers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Any pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I took photos, but the faint impressions of the letters and digits may not show up well. Certainly they were "washed out" on the initial photos that Mike sent us. The part that shows up the best is the "M, A, T, E, and R" from "Manchester" and the "20" and "17" from the 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 This date confuse me because at this time the army has no arships more. The Army stopped airship servise during 1917 and most of the ships are left to the navy. All raids over England on this date was done by navy airshps (L 41, L 45, L 46 L 47, L 49, L 50). This goblet was only awarded to army personal so this date could not match. Regards Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 That is what the city and date appears to show. It is very worn, as an attempt to grind it completely off was made. To determine this precisely, one would need futher analysis, such as what is done for "filed off" serial numbers on guns. This requires a ferrous material, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary B Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Hi, In my opinion $15K would also be low for this goblet. I paid almost $11K for a "regular" silver ehrenbecher a few years ago. Additionally, Weitze has an iron one currently for sale at near $10K (and the estimates are there could be as many as 1000 of these ehrenbechers). A piece such as the one pictured rarely comes on the market and establishing a price based on other sales is almost impossible. This item is truly worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I believe in the right venue (Europen auction) and with the right interest this piece could go way over $20K - $25K. (I seem to recall hearing that one of these which was attributed in nice ocndition going for $30K, but I can not verify that). These Thor goblets are so exceedingly rare that only a top collector could afford it; and those are the guys who pay whatever it takes to get something in their collection. Gary B Edited July 27, 2012 by Gary B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art wall Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Hi, In my opinion $15K would also be low for this goblet. I paid almost $11K for a "regular" silver ehrenbecher a few years ago. Additionally, Weitze has an iron one currently for sale at near $10K (and the estimates are there could be as many as 1000 of these ehrenbechers). A piece such as the one pictured rarely comes on the market and establishing a price based on other sales is almost impossible. This item is truly worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I believe in the right venue (Europen auction) and with the right interest this piece could go way over $20K - $25K. (I seem to recall hearing that one of these which was attributed in nice ocndition going for $30K, but I can not verify that). These Thor goblets are so exceedingly rare that only a top collector could afford it; and those are the guys who pay whatever it takes to get something in their collection. Gary B That is a higher estimate than what others have suggested, but I can see your point. The city and date have been ground off, revealing the remnants of "Manchester". There are a few dings as well, thus my estimate of $15K. Had the inscription not been buffed off, I would estimate the value at $20-25K, with a documented goblet at $25k-30K. I think we are pretty close with valuation estimates. Having seen this goblet in hand, I really think that $15K is a good estimate. If one was going to see this at an auction house, I very much doubt it would bring $20K. If so, however, with paying the 20% commission, one ends up with $16K. I do, however, respect your opinion. I have paid about $10K for ehrenbechers and $15K for one PLM attributed ehrenbecher, which I used as well as a reference in evaluating the value of a rare, yet altered, goblet. I used the fact as well that a "blank" or filed off name on an ehrenpokal will fetch a price about half or a little less, than an engraved ehrenpokal. Taking the estimates of an undamaged goblet, and the fact that this goblet is rare, that is how I came up with that number. I think that the "Manchester" is interesting, as there has not been another Thor goblet with this city. Maybe the date is wrong, as the best digit I could see was the "2" as the first digit. The "17" for 1917 was far less apparent. It would probably take some special analysis at an imaging lab at a university to clearly find the date. The "MA" and "TER" for manchester were readily apparent with magnification. Edited July 27, 2012 by art wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) That is I think that the "Manchester" is interesting, as there has not been another Thor goblet with this city. Maybe the date is wrong, as the best digit I could see was the "2" as the first digit. The "17" for 1917 was far less apparent. It would probably take some special analysis at an imaging lab at a university to clearly find the date. The "MA" and "TER" for manchester were readily apparent with magnification. All known goblets were awarded for different achievements. I don't think that two goblets exist with the same inscription. Only one of the crew members got the goblet so I don't think we will find two identical. It is unknown how the selection was made for award. But usually the commander was awarded for an achievement. Not so for this award. So possible that the owner of this goblet was not the commander. I have to check but I don't think that the army bombed the city of Manchester with airships. Regards Alex Edited July 27, 2012 by jaba1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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