Brian R

Paul - You must have been beside yourself, having identified this bar and having to wait for the doors to open again on Saturday (and hoping/PRAYING it was still there)!!!! Congratulations on a great addition to your collection. You certainly have been awarded for your hard work.

My apologies - I posted this question and never came back. My wife gave birth to our second child just a few days later. A new born and a three-year old kept me away from the forum for the next three months. I'm going to believe, at this point, that these are civilian tunics - mostly becuase I still believe this picture is from before 1910. If I find out anything else in the future about the details of this photo, I will follow up. Thanks again, Brian

I recently obtained this image - I'm pretty sure the girl on the lower right is my great grandmother. Her family was from Lithuania - this picture is probably from somewhere between 1905 and 1910. The question is... are the boys in the back wearing tunics from the Czar's Army? I know nothing about this area of militaria collecting - any info is greatly appreciated!!! Brian

Here is the EK2 doc mentioned above - probably given for actions in April, 1940... Z8 participated in the invasion of Norway as part of Group 2. Bruno Heinemann, along with three other destroyers, escorted the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper to Trondheim. The group came into contact with Norwegian guns in the approaches of the town. Admiral Hipper engaged the guns while the four destroyers ?ran the batteries? and were able to reach the city, landing the troops of 3.Gebirgs-Division.

Guys - thanks for the feedback. With this type of bar (especially given the frayed ribbon and exposed hooks) it is certainly feasible that the wrong Albert Order is on the bar (no need to hope for a possible explanation). It's funny that the wrong medal is of the higher grade - usually when bars have been switched, the one of lesser value is added as a replacement. Brian

reverse

An interesting bar but probably not traceable... The Merit Order-Knight with Swords and Albert-Knight 1st Class with Swords should be a relatively uncommon combination especially given the Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross. But there are no Oldenburg rolls, correct? Probably retired as a Major with some connection between Saxony and Oldenburg.

Check this link... http://www.kaisersbunker.com/stuff/1914_EK1_makers.htm

It looks a little smaller than usual - perhaps a variation.

Laurens - Do you have any other docs from this guy? Although your doc could have been awarded as result of the mine laying operations in May, it could also be an award based on Bruno Heinemann's particpiation in the invasion of Trondheim (escorting the Admiral Hipper and unloading troops of 3.Gebirgs-Division). Here is a doc awarded on the same day as yours - included in the group is an EK2 doc dated April 16, which I'm sure is the result of the actions at Trondheim.

I'm no expert on this particlur tunic, but you can get really nice ones for less than $200. It's only a matter of time before they go up...

Purchased from Chris B. a few years ago... An EK2 doc to Wilhelm Hafft, awarded on 19 October, 1940 as a crewmember of Vorpostenboot 411. It has a nice, clear signature of Admiral L?tjens who died with the Bismarck in May, 1942. VPB 411 was built as a whalecatcher in 1934 and was later converted to a VPB. It was part of 4. Vorpostenflottille and stationed in the region off Bordeaux and Bayonne from 1940 to 1944. Although operating on the Atlantic Coast, this award could have been made as a result of heavy action in the period leading up to Operation Sealion. VPB 411 was sunk on 26 August 1944 in the Gironde ? the result of an Allied aircraft bomb hitting the boiler room.

Here's one from the Western Front a month before the end of the war.

A nice, late war EK1 doc from the waters off northern Norway. I quote from Simon Orchard who generously provided this info a while back... "Admiral Nordmann?s patch ran from Narvik right up to Petsamo. Troms? was where the admiral had his headquarters and Finnfjorbotn is where that HQ moved to as part of the general withdrawal from Finland and Finnmark\North Troms? and the establishment of the Lyngen line (which Tirpitz was supposed to defend as a floating battery but was sunk in early November). The EKI is without doubt connected to the withdrawal from Petsamo, Kirkenes and East Finnmark. For the Kreigsmarine this was a time of trying to save as much men and material as possible whilst under more or less constant attack from the Russians." This doc is part of a small group - I have his EK2 doc from September 1943 (in Troms?) as well as EK2 with packet and his cased EK1

I have this doc to a member of 1. Gebirgs-Sanit?ts-Kompanie 95 of the 5.Gebirgs-Division. Based on the date, I would assume it was awarded as a result of the fighting on Crete. I had figured this unit was part of the "Kleine Schiffsstaffel" during the initial invasion, however a helpful member at the Axis History Forum said its was not (only 2. Gebirgs-Sanit?ts-Kompanie 95 was part of the first groups). Perhaps this unit followed later by plane? Does anyone have any info? Also, I'm curious about the signature. I cannot make it out (and the corrective tape is an interesting touch). Ringel was the division commander - who was this Oberst signing for him?

Here's another... awarded to Gefreiten Albert Kleinecke on 20 May, 1940 as a member of 12. (M.G.)/ IR 47 for actions in the area of Den Hague,?Holland. It was signed by Hauptmann and Batl. Kdr. Rudolf Gustav Buhse for Generalleutnant Graf von. Sponeck, commander of 22. Infanterie Division. Kleinecke was awarded for bravery following his unit?s attempt to secure the airfields north of Rotterdam, in the Hague region on May 10th. IR 47, along with IR 65, air landed in or around Valkenburg, Ockenburg and Ypenburg with varying degrees of success. The two regiments suffered heavy casualties and failed to secure their objectives the first day (including the capture of the Dutch Royal Family and government). They were eventually successful in securing the airfields and Holland capitulated on May 15, 1940 Interesting printed text...

Jay - Besides my interest in militaria, I have been studying my famly history too. WWI Registration info is available on Ancestry.com. A subscription is needed to get the info, but I'd gladly search the site for anyone who is interested in a specific soldier. It's not always guaranteed but it's worth a try...

Looks almost like a parts bar (new ribbons, old medals) and I would imagine the HC and War Aid Cross should be switched.

Here's one to a Friedrich Ihn crew member who could have qualified for his badge on the same mission. It is tough to say though, as he won his EK2 in January, 1940. He could have won it for any earlier mine laying mission etc., and received his destroyer badge in the months after its ultimate creation.

Great group, Gordon!! Can you tell me what MPA means on the EK2 doc? Also, Rick, how do you know this? Very interesting...

Great information, Paul. I knew the wartime awards should have come first, but I didn't know about the general rule concerning the the KO3X (KO4X) and China/SWA medals. :beer:

Here's another...

Paul - This truly is a great thread - Thanks for starting it and providing such great explanations. The problem I have with understanding medal bars is this (at the risk of showing how ignorant I really am)... How do bars from various states end up on the same bar? I understand that soldiers were transferred, and units from one area served with others but... here's an example... Here is a post 1934 frack bar to a Saxon who refused to follow regulations; wearing his Albert Order before the EK. He has to be at least a Leutnant. The Brunswick Cross is an EK equivilant, but has been awarded to a Saxon. Is this a Saxon officer serving with a unit from Brunswick? Is it a man from Brunswick serving as a Saxon officer? Or what? And how does it relate to his Saxon Landwehr Service Medal? Part of the problem is that I don't have a good enough understanding of how units from various States merged etc., into the Kaiser's army. Thanks, as always.

Perhaps. How high could his rank possibly be given the RAO 4th Class? Kapit?n?

reverse