saschaw

Regarding Scott's bar shown here, I think it's worth mentioning the (real) empty bar was restored with (real) single awards, so we cannot be sure the grades/classes are the actual ones. Thus, not any chance to identify the former wearer in my opinion... sorry!

Very nice ones, especially the Baden fire fighter... if that should ever leave you... Actually, the medal was for more than 40, but not yet 50 years of service, to fill the gap from the state medal (40 years) to the enemaled Verbands cross (50 years).

Yes, apparently. So all we know is he had some "Red Cross" or "Volkspflege" award on his medal bar - and that he got it later then the Hindenburg cross, from the set of ribbon bars. Also the Bavarian BMV4X has real gold discs, so is likely a 1914 to 1916 award... that's not much to know... Argh... didn't realize that...

The 557 BZ4M/BZVKM mentioned here are those published in the KWB? That's until mid-1918 awards only, lacking the 2nd half of the year. The actual award number is rather like (almost exactely) 600.. According to this posting on German SDA forum, the "new" medals weren't available until mid-october of 1908(!), so most, if not all Baden medals awarded for SWA were indeed Friedrich I. issues. I'm not aware if any Friedrich II. medals on the Karl Friedrich ribbon were awarded before WW1, but the chance exists. Hopefully the new Volle book will contain that infomation - the old one from 1976 doesn't. You're right, that must be an error in the KB and KWB! The last (two) awards for the war of 1870/71 were in 1872, and there were no more Karl Friedrich military merit medals awarded until 1915! Not a single one for the inter-war colonial wars... A shame such a stunning groups ends to be probably unindentifiable for the lack of first names...

Did you follow the directupload link I added? The "micro" strip is a bit bigger, there - and add free! But I agree, the Volkspflege medal doesn't fit the group and is probably replaced, so not a very good clue for the bar...

Very interesting thread and history! Or from me...

It was part of a group, sold by Baldes, and I saw at least of the group offered at emedals... Might that help? PS: Just noticed the huge picture was scaled-down while uploaded. Here it's in full size: '>

Your "volume 1" is actually volume 2, as there's even one with pre-1797 stuff.... but that one's not even on my bookshelf.

Some detail, and explanation to help those who don't recognize everything: Six place medal bar, with Prussian Red Eagle order 4th class (pre-1885 type), Prussian 1866 cross for non-combatants, officers cross of Luxemburg order of the oak crown, Prussian Hohenzollersche Denkmünze 1848/49 from 1852, Waldeck merit cross and the Baden 1849 "Fratricide" medal. Additional awards in the button holes are a Prussian Royal Crown order, 3rd class with jubilee button "50" and a knights cross 1st or 2nd class of the Ernestine House order. My first thought was the Prussian "KO3" might be a good start, but with more than 1,000 awarded in total, according to Ludvigsen statistics.... nothing to start with!

Almost forgot about that, sorry Antti... I provided this nice old portrait of a well-decorated Prussian official(?) from my collection for a work on Luxemburg awards, when the author had the idea we could and should identify the depicted. There is literally nothing that gives a clue, besides the picture was taken in Cassel/Kassel (then Prussia), and seems to be roughly from the 1870s or 1880s. Combination of awards is probably unique... but where to look for such a guy? I'm not having any sources that might spit him out... too old for DOA. I yet contacted Mr. Efler as our man is wearing an award from Waldeck... but without knowing what uniform he wears, that doesn't help. Any ideas, Gentlemen?

You think there are Württemberg collectors unaware of that? Seriously... ?! Well, maybe after being offline for some years. They are: - Klein, Ulrich und Raff, Albert: Die Württembergischen Medaillen von 1797 - 1864 (einschließlich der Orden und Ehrenzeichen). Stuttgart 2003. ISBN 3-936047-00-6. - Klein, Ulrich und Raff, Albert: Die Württembergischen Medaillen von 1864 – 1933 (einschließlich der Orden und Ehrenzeichen). Stuttgart 2010. ISBN 3-936047-02-2. I bought mine from Uwe Bretzendorfer, who still has some of them in stock per 120,- Euro each (http://www.bretzendorfer.de, items 103173 and 103081), and found also Michael Autengruber has them (http://cms.orden-der-welt.de, items L1000 and L1361), also per 120,- Euro each. Both are to be recommend - both books as well as the dealers.

Flipping threw Württemberg, I noticed this Friedrichsorden knights cross shown here is one made by the Stuttgart mint, who started doing orders in 1915. However, the suspension isn't the right one, and seems to be replaced. According to Klein and Raff, the mint delievered 4938 knights crosses 2nd class with swords and only 625 knights crosses 2nd class without swords. The vanishingly low award numbers of "peace time" awards (again, according to Klein and Raff: 79 in (full!-)1914, 8 in 1915 and 4 in 1916, unfortunately no numbers for 1917 and 1918) makes me believe it might be an altered one, that used to have swords... I guess most of the mint made, unawarded "peace time" knights crosses were destroyed after the war, when there was no more use for them. Could you, Sam, please take a look if there are traces of former swords? Thank you!

Sorry for being the bringer of bad news (again), but I have some severe doubts here. At least the swords (not sure if the cross, too) of the Kronorden are made by the Royal mint in Stuttgart who supplied the Ordenskanzlei from 1915 on. Thus, this cannot be the cross awarded to Bolstetter, nor can it be a replacement from his lifetime. I fear we cannot be even sure if there could have been some other class originally - which crashes the identification... I attached a page from the Klein/Raff book, showing a knights cross 1st class made by the mint, with their typical swords.

Somewhere? It's even yet (in 2010, actually) published, in the great work on Württemberg by Klein and Raff, on pages 186 to 188. Drop me a line when you want it emailed. Due to copyright and respect for the authors, I don't want to post scans in public.

Ah, good to know! Mh, good point... incredible how close they are, however. And how hard to distinguish, without full lists of all of the awards.

Thanks, Sergio! What an incredible outrage... this is how many (dozen) medal bars butchered for falsifications... ? Here are even more.... http://www.ebay.de/itm/181101622995

Uhm.... these are yours? Wow. Just.... wow.

But then it still looks like modern fabric and modern ribbons to me. That's very bad guys doing bars like these, driving the honorable research gnomes mad...

No, but I didn't want to out-rule 1870/71... strange Rick doesn't come up with anyone. The hardware does look legit to me.

Not possible for me due to German copyright laws, but users from other countries may be free to do... it would indeed be better for future references.

Wrede (born 1818, died 1890 Berlin) is so close I'm still not convinced it cannot be his. Attached are pictures of two of his miniature chains, from Zeige's 27th auction, held in Hamburg March 15th, 2oo8. KO3RC, the two Russians, Brunswick, Italy and the 1870s from Oldenburg and Bavaria.... that's almost too close to be wrong! =P As said, I find it possible the Johanniter was a later addition to the chain, leaving space for e.g. a Württemberg Olgaorden. Does anyone have the medalhouse catalogue to check what they had, besides his tuxedo bar yet posted?

You're right, there's a possible explanation for almost every combination. That being odd or unusual wasn't my main point, but the origin was. I can hardly remember I saw any bar by above mentioned ebay seller hagekna41 that was authentic. And he sold many, many dozens in the last ten years.... This seller uses two names, the other being agle42. Same there, mostly standard combinations, but using fake ribbons. It's sad this seems to be profitable, but.... everyone who ever tried to sell single, unribboned mass awards, at least in Germany, knows it's so much easier to sell "nice" medal bars... This one was bought by a friend some days ago, but he noticed before paying and refused the buy. Now it's offered again. The ribbons are modern fake ribbons, again. Oh, and I don't even like their ribbon bars, which are sometimes that much standard I wouldn't even buy them if they were real - but they aren't. http://www.ebay.de/itm/321144770481 http://www.ebay.de/itm/321154109089

Now what is the medal? I thought this were a quiz and you know it? My best guess is still Afghanistan, although it's not in the Tammann catalogue. I don't think this contained everything ever existing...

Great one... but are we looking for a WW1 winner of the WM3?

One of my all-time favourites, at least since I found the picture of the chain in an old auction catalogue. Unbelievable this was still unsuccesfull... Grade of the Italian order as well as presence of Imperial Chinese decoration indicate he had them pre-1914... hopefully while still (sometimes) in uniform, and not "dR/dL aD" ? KO on the chain must be a KO2, if they make a pair - which I'm sure they do. So we're looking for a Prussian with unusal KO2/RAO4 combination, with additional bizzare stuff from Far East - and cannot find him?!