saschaw

If awarded to military in peace times, probably for highest NCOs only. The war awards might have been to lower NCOs or even EMs, but for remarkable acts of bravery. The last one I saw was offered by the famous club, so they are doing them now, too. :speechless:

Very nice and good one, for a fair price. I'm still not aware of numbers awrded, but they are definitely not common.

Correct, it's an "Adler der Inhaber des (Königlichen) Hausordens von Hohenzollern", an award mostly given to teachers and such for long and good service. About 11,000 awarded according to Ludvigsen statistics. Possible additions for these eagles are jubilee numbers ("50" or "60"), but no swords, bows, crowns or anything else.

I don't think these numbers are complete, but they do give a good insight to the raltions. And yes, especially the lower classes aren't too common on "Beamten" ribbon. Very nice bar(s) you have!

Ah okay, Mecklenburg long service award makes sense. Thanks!

Claudio, nice group - but the crown does really change much. 1st classes are nice and rare... but available to the market. Crowned ones are not. Beamte ribbons ("Band für kriegsverdienst") are not unusual on the higher grades, and especially the 1st class with crown was awarded on Beamte ribbon only(?).

Indeed, yes. And a nice photo. #5 is probably a Baden 1849 medal? And the last cross unlikely a Prussian long service award - maybe Oldenburg merit cross?

It wasn't a bargain, but a pretty usual price for such a cross, especially as it's cased. Does anyone wonder why they are offered for a 1/10 of that price often, and don't even sell? I don't. A real one is insanely rare.

I found this one browsing eBay, and assume it's Russian life saving medal. I find it's looking a bit strange - is my gut feeling right this is a modern fake? http://www.ebay.de/itm/150760571896 I couldn't find much on this medal. Anyone has a link with further information, possibly English or German? I (unfortunately!) don't read Russian. When was this modell awarded, maybe how many? How common or scarce are they, and what do they usually go for?

I'd assume our guy from #4 is wearing a RAO4 or HT ribbon on #2... no?

I agree on WILM, who by the way was a Berlin jeweler.

As Trevor pointed out, KO crosses share one frame (thanks never noticed this!), which makes it very likely they are from one factory. No doubt the Eisenbahnzentralamt "decided to move into the industrial age with mass production". They had to do! Demand was extremely high in 1917, 1918... but a change from rather small jewelers to rather big factories was probably enough change to get enough crosses... To be honest, it's the best thing I've heard by now, but with no proves... it's just an hypothsis. By the way, now "Idar-Oberstein" was just "Oberstein" back then, and Klein & Quenzer claims to have made about a million(!!!) of WW1 Iron Crosses, probably in some mid-war advertising. I don't have the source for it, but it's quoted on German wikipedia. So, there is a maker who made a million crosses, which is about a 5th of all crosses awarded... and this maker is K lein & Quenzer from Oberstein... it does sound plausible to me!

Here it is: http://h1797427.stratoserver.net/public_html/wbb3/board3-3/board144-eisernes-kreuz-1813-1870-1914/34645-die-br%C3%BCnierten-eks-typen-und-varianten/index2.html#post267668 The thread is a bit confusing due to serveral confused topics, but the hard facts given, quoted by CSForrester from the mentioned Scharfenberg article, are worth their weight in gold.

Most of "800" crosses shown in the other thread are vaulted, and thus private purchase crosses. Awarded crosses are flat, and usually not silver marked, but only maker marked (CD 800 being an exception). The shown "800" crosses (or some of them) might indeed be rather early and pre-date the K.O.s, but they are not what was awarded before K.O. came in later. The typical rather early award crosses are those by WS, S-W, G, Fr. and so, which are most probably the well-known Berlin jewelers Johann Wagner & Söhne, Sy & Wagner, Godet, Friedländer... (and some more) It is a known fact the Prussian Generalordenskommsission did order their EKs 1st class from Berlin makers only. This didn't change until the GOK was superseded by the Eisenbahnzentralamt in ca. mid 1917(?). They then ordered crosses not only from Berlin. I don't know for sure if they ordered from additional other makers in Prussia, or from in all Germany. There is an articel on OuE (German BDOS/DGO magazine), based on archive work, by Dr. Scharfenberg. It is, in some main points, quoted and discussed on German SDA forum. Scharfenberg's article is probably the most important in this issues ever published - as it's based on archive facts, and not on guesses and observations. (as almost anything else). Chris, I'll gladly look the mentioned thread out for you! Now that you're on SDA... :cheers:

I'm not saying they did not make EKs in Saxony or Bavaria. But I'm pretty sure they were all ordered via the Prussian(!) Generalordenskommission, Berlin, and later via the Eisenbahnzentralamt for award purposes. They weren't awarded at home, were they? So why order them at home... where the Eisenbahnzentralamt got them from is another thing and I'm not sure if any EKs made outside of Prussia were awarded officially. If so, it's due the high demand.

The information about Berlin mint comes, if I remember correctely, from is Frau Bannicke who is a phaleristic and works in their archives. It sounded solid to me however, althought I've never seen a proove. Hard to prove they're late war, yes. But we could narrow it down with provenanced crosses. Named groups with Wehrpasses, crosses with documents and so. I'm not betting, but if I were, I'd bet we wont's find a KO-EK1 from before 1917...

Wien is extremely unlikely, as wasn't even in the Reich. The most common crosses, foreign made? No way. I'd love to see the so calles "proove" for it in a book that was published recent years. Similar with Stuttgart - approx. half of all EKs made out of Prussia? Unlikely. However, Stuttgart mint's crosses are marked K.M. and K.M.ST. That is for sure. So now about the Berlin state mint? They did not produce just one EK. Prooven from their archive. Not by me, but I really like to spread the word. Regarding my convintion they are all rather late: How about to find the earliest one awarded? An interesting task! The ones I've seen were 1917, 1918 and post-war issues. None from 1914, 1915, 1916...

We can assume A might be Assmann. It's entirely possible. But we just don't know. All 1st classes made in Stuttgart I'm aware of are pricvate purchase variations that could literally have been made everywhere. I'm not sure about the 2nd classes.

I'd say the same, looks quite good. Interessting combination. If you don't want it, you can gladly drop me a PM. But would you mind to show a picture of the bar's front?

If you don't count the Albrechtskreuz (non-enemaled merit cross of the order, for NCOs and low ranked civilians), the knight's cross 2nd class is the lowest grade, yes.

Okay, thank you!

Now that's a lovely group! As I don't read any Russian - just curious, is there a price tag on it?

Oh, that's easy. The wreath is an integral component of any grade higher than the knight's cross 2nd class, so it's not an actual add-on.

As it was a Prussian award, I so don't think they had to get their ownes made "at home", if I get your question right.

I'm so glad not to see these nonsense interpretations of the marks... once more I read H is for Hossauer, I'd really get angry. Have you noticed this little overview we worked out on SDA forum? Any mark with a picture of the cross to avoid misread marks like e.g. KC might be. It's not perfect, but it was worth a try. http://h1797427.stratoserver.net/public_html/wbb3/board3-3/board144-eisernes-kreuz-1813-1870-1914/58493-%C3%BCbersicht-kern-und-rahmenvergleich-eisernes-kreuz-2-klasse-1914/ One other thing: I see awarded and private purchase crosses mixed here in this list. Maybe one should think about seperating them?