tifes

Hi Palencia, Well, theoretically he could also get a Merit Cross with Crown on red (peace) ribbon during the WWI if his activity wouldn’t have been anyhow connected with merits in war. However I assume that displayed group belonged to Bavarian military person active for some time before WWI as he also had China Commemoration Medal for Combatants 1901. I would say that he originally received Merit Cross with Crown in real gold before WWI however he preserved that piece as valuable item and replaced it by gilded bronze version which was cheap and easy to acquire. This ribbon is probably from 1920s or maybe even 1930s. It was quite common with old German veterans to preserve the original and unique pieces and use some cheap replacement for everyday wear instead. Even that above- mentioned China medal looks like later struck for me. Regards, Tifes

Well Farkas, I see very ordinary “Bandstreife” bar of the low-ranked AH officer (Leutnant/ 2nd lieutenant or Oberleutnant/ 1st lieutenant), starting with “something” on the ribbon of Military Merit Cross with Swords, which probably should be Bronze Military Merit Medal (BMVM/ Signum Laudis), followed by Karl-Truppen Cross, then there is Jubilee Cross 1908 and last AH medal is Mobilization Cross 1913. The medal at the end of the bar should be 2nd Class Military Merit Cross of Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. It´s absolutely correct and fully respecting the order of precedence. That officer was too young to get Long Service Cross for Officers for 25 years because even in 1918 he would be commissioned in 1893 which would mean that he had to have Jubilee Medal 1898. Elisabeth-Medaille was only for ladies and it was worn on butterfly ribbon. It goes without saying that there wasn’t any particular “Bandstreife” (small ribbon for bar) for it. It never existed. Regards, Tifes

Hi Scottplen, well, everything seems to be wrong here. It´s basically "non-sense". EK II was given to officers only. This composition is showing NCO awards. There is very little chance that some kuk NCO would have got EK II. He should have been serving in kuk Army unit directly subordinated under German command. Then his merits in combat would have been seen equally as any other German NCO. These situations had been extremely rare and you can count them on the fingers of one hand. In real life kuk NCO couldn't get EKII. Then first medal on the bar is Commemorative Medal of the 1. Austrian republic issued in 1932. It should be at the end of the bar, but before EK II (foreign decoration). Situation changed after "Anschluss" when Austria became part of the 3rd Reich. Then all German decorations would have priority so EK II would be first in the line before any Austrian one. Another problem is with JEM 1898 and MDZ for enlisted soldiers and NCO. If somebody had JEM 1898 then he had to have also JEK 1908. This would also mean that this particular NCO was serving in the army since 1897/1898 so at the end of WWI he would be entitled to get MDZ for NCO for 20 years of service or at least for 10 years (if some circumferences occurred). However on the bar there is only MDZ for enlisted men and NCO for 6 years. Mobilization Cross 1912/1913 would be after JEM 1898 just before Commemorative Medal of the 1. Austrian republic. Moreover the brass bar with long needle is not of Austrian style. I would say that this is just random selection of medals which was put altogether. It has very little to do with the reality, Regards, Tifes

+ trakkles - it´s fake mark. You are right, Tursas. Zimbler was closed after WWI. The eagle didn't look like original Zimbler production but I wasn't sure. Now it´s clear. In interwar period many of pilot/observer badges had been made by BSW (but not exclusively) however it could happen that eagle would come from old Zimbler original just to be placed on the newly made wreath because old one was severely distorted and so it was replaced. Many of the former kuk pilots were in their mid-40s during WWII and served as pilot instructors in Wehrmacht (as Austrians after "Anschluss") . Some of them were even re-enlisted for active duty and flew over battlefields. However this wasn't a fate of this badge. Best, Tomas

Hi Tursas, I would definitely rule out that this badge is awarded original or privately purchased one prior 1918. It seems to me like very good collector`s copy but it´s true that there are only two pics for disposal and therefore best hope is for interwar period (1930s-1940s) however I am definitely more tending to that collector´s copy. Best, Tifes/Tomas

Hi everyone, silver bars were for Bravery Medals but also for Silver Military Merit Medals (2x,1x) and Iron Merit Cross with or without crown when enemy wasn´t faced directly. Silver bars with swords were for Silver Military Merit Medals (2x,1x) when officer faced an enemy directly (mostly on battlefield). There also had been golden bars for other decorations - 2x golden bars with or without swords for Military Merit Cross with War Decoration (WD) and 1x golden bar with or without swords for LO-R with WD, EKO III with WD, FJO-R on the ribbon of Military Merit Cross, Golden Merit Cross with crown on the ribbon of Military Merit Cross and Large Silver Military Merit Medal. I think that I have covered them all. Those with "K" had been for Golden/Silver Bravery Medals for Officers. Awarded originals are rare, mostly we see privately purchased pieces or post-1918 ones. One more thing...it was quite common that NCO awarded twice or three times with Golden Bravery Medal had the bars made of gold, which wasn’t allowed by army regulations but tolerated. Those NCOs were seen as superheroes with widespread rumour (pilots, submariners, stormtroopers) and army authorities turned the blind eye on this practise. Regards, Tifes/Tomas

Hi Jannis, Medal is A-H Bronze Medal for Bravery. It seems to absolutely OK. It´s one of the most common A-H decorations, awarded more than 950.000 times, not counting in so-called “second pieces” (medals purchased privately). Ribbon is older one, however it seems to be post-1918 (1930s). Bar for 4x awarding doesn’t look like original for me. These 4x bars are really rare and copies are very common. First suspicious sign is that bar is not sewn on the ribbon and there is also no maker´s mark or hallmark (sometimes they were made of silver). It doesn’t mean that the bar without any maker´s mark must be a fake however if it is there it´s better, of course. It is also good to mention that makers´ marks could be faked too. Absolutely most common maker´s mark is the one of “Zimbler” company. Bronze Bravery medal could awarded 4 times, like any other AH Bravery Medal (Silver II. Class, Silver I. Class and Gold) First picture is showing faked mark of Zimbler, second one is an original Zimbler maker´s mark. Regards, Tomas

Hi John, A-H red ribbon is very common one used in variety of decorations either in peace time (Merit Crosses, Military Merit Medals, FJO) or for some other decorations like Annorum 40 (Medal for 40 years of faithful service) or JEM 1898 for military (Commemorative medal 1898 for military personal). We are talking about millions indeed. However never with swords. This combination is not possible. Story about Military Merit Cross with this combination is just fairy tale. Sorry for that. Regards, Tomas

You welcome Christian. Just short comment to Pieter´s inquiry. According to its legal status the Order of Iron Crown is divided into three classes – first, second and third one and all recipients are „knights“. There is no Grand Cross and Commander however I perfectly see Pieter´s point. Knight of the I. Class is equal to Grand Cross, 2nd Class to Commander and 3rd Class is just the Knight. All there classes differ in size. 1st class – 76mm, 2nd Class – 66mm and 3rd Class – 55mm. Neckband is also smaller compared to sash, having just 52mm in width compared to sash´s 102mm. Sash is worn on the breast with exception of the high clergy like bishops, cardinals and other prelates who wore 1st Class sash round the upper chest as upper-body band (in a style of golden chain). In the attachment pls find 2nd class and 3rd class in gold and in boxes with original ribbons. “Commander” is issue about 1900 and “knight” is bit older, about 1875. Regards, Tifes/Tomas

Hi Pieter, officially it´s EKO I. Class (Orden der Eisernen Krone I. Klasse) which is the equivalent of the Grand Cross in case of other Austrian Orders like FJO or LO. Big suspension ring could be also sewed into sash as you have presented however more often it was on ellipse ring with enamel pearls. It depended pretty much on personal taste of awardee. Ring was however inevitable if the badge was worn on collane. This also doesn’t exclude some other atypical form of attachment. As I wrote above the taste was quite important element and there was always some “space for manoeuvre” when necessary. Austrian protocol was quite versatile in this respect in contrary to Prussian one for instance. By the way you have really beautiful complete set in superb state, congrats and happy that you have shared it with us. Regards, Tifes

Well Christian, the simple answer on your question would be yes; it does influence the price and hence also desirability however EKO I from Golden Chain is not a piece that you can find everyday just like that. As I wrote before it´s still very valuable decoration which is rare but you have to count with some lower price when compared to identical intact piece if you decide to sell it. Regards, Tifes

Hi, It´s not a pilot badge. It´s „patriotic“ badge which could be purchase privately, also by “ordinary” people, not only by pilots. Spending had been then used to finance further “war efforts” . Some pilot used them as “Kappenabzeichen” – cap badges and I have seen some pieces even with personal dedications. This one is ordinary or I would rather say that it was. It´s in quite deteriorated state. Collector´s value is quite low, close to none. It´s just non-precious metal like messing or something in this sense. Regards, tifes

For me it looks like very early version of the last type. Maker´s mark and enamels in the crown are indicating that it was made about 1870. It´s private purchase in gold. However as you have mentioned correctly ellipse suspension with “pearls” is missing but it could be done by purpose, for instance to fit on the bar. The ribbon is also correct and it seems to be quite old. Regards, Tifes

Hi Christian, yes, it´s the EKO I in Gold, around 1900 (+/- 10 years). Except some imperfection in the Lombardy Crown (green „emeralds“) it´s in very nice state. Valuable piece indeed. Hallmarks are for gold, so called “Gemsenkopfpunze” (head of chamois from 1872 to 1922) for 18k gold. That one on pendilias under the crown is quite visible, at least for me. The ellipse suspension with small white “pearls” was replaced by the ring. This is the indication that this badge was placed on the “Kollane” – large gold ceremonial chain. As I wrote above – very fine piece. Regards, Tifes

Dear Bucky, you probably mean whether the decoration is original piece (pre-1918, Monarchy time period) or collector´s copy. The later is true. It´s just collector´s copy, made after 1945. Sorry if this answer didn't please you. Regards, t.

Hi Patrick, I am not into numismatics, but as I know this is just regular small coin which commonly circulated. I do not see anything special on it. Maybe somebody thought that`s precious. Inner circle with enamels might be made of gold, but enamels are of poor quality. Any official decorations makers of late 19 century like Rothe or Mayers wouldn't make it. These companies had also been jewelry makers, but this is too low craftsmanship for them. It probably served for some private purpose and I would assume that coin was personally valuable item for somebody who decided to place it in this brooch. Just my personal opinion. Maybe somebody can shed more light into it. Sorry, but I cant help you more. Regards, Tifes/Tom

Salut Patrick, unfortunately it`s what you see...20-kreuzer in some brooch. Nothing official and nothing to do with Austrian decorations. Being frank…it`s worthless. Sorry. Regards, Tifes/Tom

Well, I think that they are just migrating e-library. I would say it`s just temporary shut down. Book was published in 1919 and I think that copyright exclusivity ceases out after 75 years (EU law). I can check it if I am right and if it´s so then I can upload it at some server and provide you with the link.

Dear Trooper_D, Of course, those facts, which have stated, are stipulated by the EKO Statute, particularly in para 12. Pls find picture of it and my courtesy translation from German below. §12 When the by Order awarded person obtains higher grade of the Order then he puts off a decoration of the lower grade. Awarding of the Order with War Decoration has the same effect of laying down the Order of the same grade without War Decoration. Person awarded by the Order with war Decoration cannot be awarded by the same grade of the Order without War Decoration. This status as well as other ones, including pictures and some charts could be found in one of the most classic work of Austrian- Hungarian Phaleristics: Das Ordensbuch der gewesenen Österreichisch-Ungarischen Monarchie written by Heinrich Michetschläger. It is basically last one and most authentic publication of the period, which was ever made. Must for everyone who is serious about A-H decorations. It was for free downloading at the webpage of the Institute for Military History in Prague but I can’t find a link anymore. However it´s stated there that downloading is possible in the section “Annex”. http://www.vhu.cz/book/michetschlager-heinrich-f-das-ordensbuch-der-gewesenen-osterreichisch-ungarischen-monarchie-orden-kreuze-ehrenzeichen-medaillen-denkmunzen-dienstzeichen-matrikelzeichen-amtsabzeichen-etz/ Maybe somebody can help. The digital copy of the book has quite volume, 71 MB, so I don’t know how to help you with this. Regards, Tomas

Good afternoon, Well, I wouldn’t say that´s crystal clear issue at all. First of all that medal bar seems quite strange to me. I am not an expert on German States medal bars but it would be good if somebody could explain why 3 first German orders (MMJO, Bavarian MVO and EK II) are suddenly “cut” by foreign decorations (Austria-Hungary, Braunschweig and Hungary after 1920) and then it continues with other German ones (Bavarian and Prussian) and then at the very end…EKO III peace version. Wouldn’t it be correct to have German decorations first and only then followed by those awarded by foreign states? There must be some order of precedence. Issue of Iron Crown is not that simple. Order of the British Empire couldn’t serve for this purpose. If somebody was awarded by Order of Iron Crown III Class in peace times (without war decoration) and consequently in a war, a war decoration would be awarded then he would be having just Iron Crown III Class with War Decoration, not both of them. Officially there could be worn only one Iron Crown Order at the same time (highest one) and that one with War decoration would have precedence. Furthermore it must be underlined that Iron Crown III. Class peace version (before 1914) was high decoration, usually given to the A-H army officer in the rank of colonel for successfully commanding the unit of the size of regiment or something comparable. In the case of foreign army officers it might be possible to get such decoration when serving as high military diplomat (military attaché or deputy military attaché) accredited in Vienna, take significant part in some “common undertaking” with Austrian- Hungarian Army like large military manoeuvres, war campaign etc. or for some special merit. Colonel Ritter von Scherf, before the WWI, was “just” major of Bavarian Army and he was never been involved in anything with A-H Army (at least I didn´t find anything), which would allow him to obtain EKO III. Moreover looking at that EKO III peace version at the very end of the medal bar, it is really some cheap copy from late times and definitely it has nothing to do with the original, even bronze gilded. EKO III with War Decoration paired with Military Merit Cross III. Class is, on the other hand, very nice WWI award piece in a good quality. Regards, Tomas

Dear Kasle, Firstly I would like to touch upon the last point about cracks in enamels. Well, obviously I was thinking about the cracks that are visible by naked eye. I do not use anything stronger than 6x magnifying glass of standard numismatics loupe. I have never had a need to go for something stronger. If there is something invisible and not disturbing then it is OK. In wasting majority of all cases there is basically no problem to distinguish between genuine (pre-1918) enamel and modern polymer epoxide. The difference is day and night and even good quality photo is sometimes more than enough to clearly recognise the original and modern copy. Of course, there are some good quality copies made in 1990s and more attention should be paid indeed. Concerning the source of information I would very much prefer some quality literature than non-verified internet sources. In my humble opinion two best publications in this particular area are written by prominent Austrian expert Mr. Jörg C. Steiner. First one concerns field pilot badges (Jörg C. Steiner; Das Feldpilotenabzeichen – Militärhistorische Themenereihe, Band 4, Wien 1992) and second one observers badges (Jörg C. Steiner; Das Luftfahrer-Abzeichen – Militärhistorische Themenereihe, Band 8, Wien 1993). Both are written in German and they contain massive amount of all kind of information which Mr. Steiner gathered during his extensive research on the topic. Back to awarded badges. I can only repeat what I know. There is Circular Note No. 170 dated to 2. October 1917, part 13, Nr. 44252 which is published in 47th part of Official Journal of the k.u.k. Army dated to 6. October 1917 and signed by k.u.k. Minister of War GdI Rudolf v. Stöger-Steiner. It contains, except the exact design of “new” pilot badge, also the paragraph which says the following (courtesy translation from German) : “Attachment of the badge is made by the safety hooks, instead of until now used standardized needle, which is placed under the monogram shield, respectively shield with coat of arms”. I do not know about any other amendments to this circular note in this respect. The reason for that was quite simple and purely practical. Needle broke away quite often, because badge on the uniform was placed on quite exposed spot. There was a concept that one needle should have been replaced by double needle but this wasn’t very practical and even quite expensive. Safety hooks prevailed as this was a wish of the pilots and even some field pilot badges FJI version 1913 had been modified by hooks by the pilots themselves when needle tore away. All badges had been commissioned by the company “Zimbler”. First badges had been delivered not sooner than January 1918 and till end of the WWI 320 badges of this type should have been awarded to field pilots. There is quite possible that last 42 pilots never received theirs badges, because there was some time gap between decision made and decision carried out and meanwhile the Empire ceased to exist. Probably these pilots purchased those badges by themselves as they had been fully entitled to. Of course, maybe I am missing something and somebody dispose of more precise information on this subject. I would be really glad to get anything new to complete or even change what I have written above. Your badge, despite the pictures are in rather small size, seems OK for me. I would say it´s WWI original, because of the overall execution. It is quite possible that it was made by Zimbler. Needle would be OK when put on the dress uniform. Zimbler made almost all of its products of non-precious metals. I have seen some badges made by Rothe or other (civil) jewellers, of the highest craftsmanship, mostly in silver and sometimes with dedications in beautiful leather boxes. Sometimes they have identical shape as the official badges, but sometimes they look different. All of them are rare and quite expansive on the phaleristics marker now. Your badge is good addition to the collection and many collectors have the same or similar badges. Regards, tifes

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Firstly I fully agree with Elmar. Moreover I also insist what I have written about pilot and observer badges type Karl. I am talking about awarded badges, not privately purchased. With all the respect I wouldn’t be using Emedals webpage as the reference. Both badges, for field pilot sand observers, are described and even drawn in above-mentioned decrees of the KuK War Ministry. This is (lesser) from of biding law not some explanatory leaflet. It was followed by official authorities and the badges had been commissioned according those rules. Of course, pilot had more than one uniform and he could privately purchase one or more other badges. Those might be period originals, but not awarded. I was still talking only about officially awarded badges, maybe I wasn’t precise enough. Sorry for that. The same concerns famous “K” on the Bravery medals for Officers. There is exactly prescribed form and only those had been awarded. I have seen plenty (dozens) of these “K”s in the last years, awarded originals maybe about 5 pieces. tifes

Dear Colinf, I know that you have addressed your question to Elmar and I am not him, but I will try to describe the situation about flying badges as I know it. I am only going to deal with flying badges that had been in “broader use”, which means both field pilot flying badges (FJI and Karl) and flying badge for observer (Karl). There are some others, very scarce flying badges for navy pilot (50 pieces made by company Franz Till´s Neffe in Wien, made of silver, hallmarked) and two projects, new flying badge for navy pilot (sometimes called “1918 version”) and in 1918 brand newly introduced flying badge for navy observer. Both being made by Zimbler of same metal alloy as all previous flying badges, some 200 pieces struck but never officially awarded. Coming back to 3 first mentioned and most common badges. Kuk Ministry of War commissioned all these three flying badges by Zimbler company and in exact described form indeed. For field pilot flying badge FJI it´s circular decree of kuk Ministry of War No. 2218 from 4. January 1912, for field pilot flying badge Karl it´s circular decree of kuk Ministry of War No. 44252 from 2. October 1917 and for and flying badge for observer (Karl) it´s circular decree of kuk Ministry of War No. 25089 from 9. June 1917. In these 3 decrees you can find exact description how the flying badge should be looking like (there is even a drawn picture) and who can be awarded (just general description, other decrees on this mater followed). Just couple of main observation: Field pilot flying badge FJI is always on needle, Imperial Crown in strict from (no pendilia), eagle is grey (colorless), makers mark (Zimbler) struck on the reverse of eagle. Field pilot flying badge Karl is always on hooks, Double Crown instead of Imperial Crown and the rest stays as by FJI version. Flying badge for observer (Karl) always on hooks, hollow reverse of the eagle, eagle is also greyed except lightnings which are in golden color, reverse of the eagle is hollow and Zimbler maker´s mark is struck down by the lower hook. These badges had been formally awarded to pilots/ observers after completion of all conditions by official authorities. In fact these badges could be seen as qualification badges, not everyone was allowed to wear them. All other variants are either privately purchased badge before 1918 or privately purchased badges in late 1930s. Privately made badges made before 1918 are of very high quality as the awarded originals, sometimes even on higher level, made of silver, with dedications, crown with pendilias etc. KuK Army was a quite tolerant towards such “excesses”, mainly from certain groups of military staff. German Imperial Army wouldn’t allow it…Prussian strictness. Second group of privately made badges originates from 1930s, when many former pilots and observers re-joined Luftwaffe (after Anschluss) to be trainers for young pilots. These guys were basically in their forties (not old grandpas) and some of them even flown over battlefields of WW2. Company Zimbler ceased to exist in 1919/1920 (it went into bankruptcy) and some other companies like BSW replaced them to face the demand for old Imperial kuk flying badges in late 1930s. These badges are not as well-done as the originals, customized according the wishes of customer (needles, hooks, different colours etc…) Well and “at the end of the game” we have also copies, made in 1990s, usually trying to imitate Zimber originals (many of them are having Zimbler maker´s mark on the back, but it´s not struck but somehow engraved) and these are of very low quality (mainly enamels). Regards, Tifes In pictures attached, 3 old Zimber originals, all bestowed to pilots or observer in the period of Great War.

Hi Magician, Unfortunately it´s copy like “Iver†has written. This medal is made of silver, diameter of 31,9 mm (with suspension 37,4mm) and weight of 18,9g. The only hallmark is on the rim and it´s “A†in circle (hallmark for silver of HMA Vienna). Looking at the pictures it seems to be a cast in my opinion. Regards, tifes