JimZ

It boils down to taking a chance......sometimes a very expensive one which may prove or disprove itself with research. Now that the auction closed and I was neither a bidder (nor a buyer), it remains my idea that it was 99.9% a fake. I also seriously doubt that a serial number as early as that could have been awarded to a foreigner..... Jim.

No fire here..... Only 3 plausible explanation in my eyes! 1 - "Foreign Awardee" (VERY INTERESTING STORY) 2 - "Fake" 3 - "Russian Awardee ignorant of wearing regulations" Researching the order would reveal whether it was awarded to a foreigner. But beyond that and without evidence to the contrary this is all speculation. Jim

Agreed ..... plausible and acceptable within the limits of regulations. But when we move beyond that then the term 'fantasy piece' comes into play. I just do not want anyone thinking - oh, it might be plausible as it happened to other orders. That is just it - with other orders its most plausible (but only in so far as its an early serial number falling within the range of screwback that suddenly became a suspension order becasue of a change in regularions Rick, demonstrates the opposite happening with the triple ORB cavalier from McDaniels and Schmitt being converted from suspension to screwback. However, the red star was always a screw back award and logically, this should not have happened to it. Not much more to add on this one without being repetitive. Jim

You're confusing the issue here as the ORB started out as a screwback and was converted to a suspension by virtue of regulations. The Order of the Red Star was never a suspension order at any stage of its existence. Two very different issues! Jim

Marc - First of all please be very careful not to quote me out of context. When I make a statement I do not appreciate that two words are twisted out of perspective, especially on certain subjects. I have advocated against speculation in Soviet ODMs ever since, having some serious arguments with some members who are obsessed with prices and values - so I particulary do not appreciate your comment, as this throws my words in the wrong light. A "BUT" in caps shows where the crux of my comment was, which means you missed the jist. I guess this adds some clarity to what I said and what you unintentionally misquothed. What I hinted at as a "VERY interesting story" could be that this order may have been awarded to a foreigner as Ed hinted - giving the tiny minute possibility that this was a "genuine conversion" done by the foreign recipient. However, my method of collecting does not include taking gambles and buying every order on the odd chance that its was worn by Mr Zukhov, Mr Brezhnev or Mr Gagarin ........ Therefore, given the very low probabilty of this order being awarded to a foreigner, why should anyone spend few hundred dollars on what remains after all a (regretfully) "bastardised" red star, when the same few hundreds of dollars may probably buy you a proper red star. Any screwback order that has a ring welded to it, has the screwpost cut, and has such bad enamal and medallion damage is WORTHLESS and has nothing going for it, OTHER THAN the S/N and the research possibility. As this forum consists not only of experienced collectors but also of newbies and variation collectors, it is important that we call a spade a spade, and this 'variation' of the Order of the Red Star, not a 'variation' but MOST PROBABLY a 'bastardisation' made in the name of profit - of course in my very humble opinion! Regards, Jim

Considering that there was so much happening.... .... four sided suspensions converted to screwbacks, (eg Nevsky, OGPW etc) .... four sided suspensions converted to five sided suspensions, (eg Bravery, Military merits and XX anniversary RKKA) .... screwbacks converted to five sided suspensions, (eg ORB and OL) .... and the subsequent issue of several other new medals .... with a population of so many (many) millions, someone was probably bound to fudge it up.... and change one of the only medals that remained unchanged!!! Of course as mentioned above, this can also be a fake case of.... WOW - look at this RARE conversion. You gotta have it .... BUT I also would NOT rule out the fact that this could have been veteran mounted. Either way, its not worth as much with a missing arm, missing screwpost, soldered ring, damaged(?) medallion and damaged hammer and sickle! BUT with research and given its low serial number, it could tell a VERY interesting story! Regards Jim

Is the price high.... NO.... considering what the price will be in 3 years time. What I may have overpaid in terms of price I will make back three, four and five fold if and when I sell my collection. And each time we say the prices cannot go higher.... that's just what they do! With today's prices I find it hard to increase my collection, and that is kind of killing off the fun. Sigh! Jim

Hi Andreas, I took the liberty of moving the thread to the researched awards forum. Well done on this one! Goes to keep showing the great stories behind these otherwise 'humble' medals. Jim :cheers:

Considering that the tower and clock are worn down and gilded over, its no surpise to see the serial number messed with on the first one. The second one need a much closer look but if they do come from the same source, be wary! Eric.... do be nice please And as for the general is this fake is this original sort of thread, I'd suggest posting these in the fakes section which is a) restricted and b) a more suitable forum for discussing certain things, without hopefully, educating the fakers too much.... I'm moving this thread there! Jim

Agreed Rick. My reference to design is in fact only in the context of the Russian Federation handing out Communist era medals - And that is why I refer to it as one of the 'cleaner' orders. The order that was the cross of St. George did become the Soviet Order of Glory, which yet again, in modern Russia yet again bears the name of St George, thus completing a full circle! I'd paste the link to the modern Russian medals if I remembered where that was! Jim :cheers:

Correct me if I am wrong but the Glories are one of the 'cleanest' soviet order having no red flag as such (unless the red enamalled scroll constiutes a red banner!), no marxist themes/propoganda, and its also one of the few orders not having the hammer and sickle on its obverse or reverse! Of course, the Kremlin with its tower and star is also a symbol of modern Russia, although "CCCP" on the reverse does kind of give the game away - but at least its tucked away where no body can see it, (right above the wearer's heart!!!) Comment on serial numbers is indeed also very, very interesting! Jim

Although that will only apply to the red star! If I recall correctly, EOW did not get into 1985 OGPW awards as these are all commemorative non combat awards awarded way after the war (1985 as the name implies!). Jim

Nothing much to add to the above. Well done. Jim :cheers:

:beer: to a recovery from your recent falls. Do take care Mike!! Kudos to Chuck for his thoughts! A near extinct breed of gentleman!! Jim PS - keep em pics coming Mike!

Bet you anything that it would fail the blacklighting test! It almost glows under notmal light!! Of course - far from my area of expertise but when comparing the one in post #1 does have a certain shoddy aura to it. Not to mention the differences on the reverse. Jim

Pertaining to which country exactly? Jim

Shame - not my area but it hurts nevertheless.

Hey Christphe.... if he's right I propose you give it to him. This question had waaaay too many parts to it! Interesting how posting the pics could be construed as anything else. Can the round spherical shapes of the earlier Luna 1 and 2 be misconstrued as something else by german computers? Jim

Way too long winded

Wow - the detail on this one is amazing! Thanks for posting! Jim

What is that on the reverse? "L I M B" ?

Would you not agree that the sabre hilt and the serial number of the MMM are incompatable? http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIAN-SOVIET-ORDER-M...1QQcmdZViewItem Which brings me to the all too convenient lack of serial number on the later MMM.... Bogus 4 sided suspension MMM = bogus group. Possible genuine booklet and rest of group but I'd stay away. Any contributions? Jim

For those of you watching with interest the E-GAY auctions of an OBK3, OS3 and OOL screwback as well as some other smaller items, you were probably not surprised to see the auctions have been ended early..... AGAIN! I find this a disturbing practice and although its really a case of the seller trying to maximise his revenues, it very often happens that these same orders are bought by unscruplous profiteers as they many a time, turn up in the market in a very short space of time! It bothers me because this is quite clearly a view that an order or medal is a commodity, which has a quantum in monetary terms.... and quite basically screw the heroics and the deeds that earned the order. A case in point was a previous auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...:PIC&ih=004 where repeated attempts were made to take this item off the market by dealers. In that particular case the, seller held out and good for him indeed. Although it was indeed another dealer getting the order in the end! But at least it was a fair fight! And I respect both buyer and seller for that! Of course, no surprise if and when these orders turns up at that same price PLUS an extra $1000 just as it may quietly disappear into someone's wishlist. Just my musings on a Sunday morning after losing an hour's sleep - having also lost a few hours sleep over the last days thinking about that Suvorov! Jim

With the glory series being instituted in 1943 it isinded a possibility. Alhough you'd still wonder - why not a red star or two?