JimZ

In fact that is why my usual approach is "DO NOT TOUCH THE MEDAL UNLESS YOU REALLY HAVE TO.... AND WHEN U REALLY HAVE TO - BE CAREFUL!!!!" I disagree that medals or orders or even unfiorms are cleaned, polished, handled with bare hands etc etc etc..... And if there are stains, glues or anything else, the less you tamper with the medal, the better it is because in an attempt to do good and protect the medal, sometimes more damage is actually done! I know of a case where a first world trio (British) with very dirty ribbons was cleaned by gently brushing with distilled water. The ribbons were no more after the exercise in spite of the collector's best intentions...... And if that were the only case I know of ....... With all other things its a learning curve! And sometimes we all make mistakes.... usually less costly ones!! Its just the way it goes with us! What would be great would be if a professional conservator would be around to give tips! Till such a member joins GMIC, we must make do as best as possible with our experiences. Jim:cheers:

A different variation does not necessarily mean a later date of issue even if logically, one would "assume" that a variation 1, 2 and 3 would probably have some sequence to them! But one cannot go on assumptions. What it does surely mean is : 1) a different stamp has been used - so possibly this could be a different run within the same mint or a different stamp in a different mint ; or 2) a whole different method of manufacture as in the case of say, Nevskys or OGPWs .... although this is more of a type than a variation difference. However .... a very interesting area for discussion nevertheless and perhaps one which could eventually merit its own thread. Jim

Still hoping that someone who has and can read the info can perhaps post it..... anyone please? Jim

OMG!!!! Look at the lenins!!!! Look at the lenins!!!! And to think I was also there in August 2005 (I believe it was August). Having had Grand Prix events to attend ... I remember being slightly hungover when visiting the bazaar .... which is immense! If only I knew that somewhere, in some corner or other, 6 lenins lay there..... and these being the tip of the iceberg Dunno about bodily functions stopping when u sneeze...... but my heart for one just missed a beat!!! Jim

When you consider the cumulative years of collecting expertise within a forum, there is nothing better than members putting their heads together and exchanging information!!! We are sitting on a real gold mine of info and expertise in GMIC!!! May it never run dry and may its gold never tarnish!! Jim

As long as a seller is upfront about it like Kim was, then the buyer knows exactly what he is buying.... with the odd chance that it actually turns out to be something more. I call that a fair exchange! What is important is that when buying, newbie collectors especially, learn to properly evaluate what they are paying and what they are actually receiving. Buying such a group is, after all no more than a lottery, with research being the draw! Lady luck does smile down on some bars being part and sometimes even whole groups. Jim

A pleasure! Some times one needs somebody else to ask the question that you have always been wanting to ask! Jim

One can talk of medal groups. One can also talk of militaria groups. Back from my days as a kid when "if it was militaria, it was collectible" I have amassed a great many number of items and militaria groups. Most notably, and I shall use this to illustrate the argument is a group belonging to my uncle's father. Having served in the Austrian Army before the war, he found himself in the ranks of the wermacht following the Anshluss up to the end of the war when he was a POW of the Americans. At 80 years, old 'papa' decided to pass on to me his tunic, field coat and some other badges of his. Some years following his passing, his son passed on another batch of items including his medals and other insignia. Whereas I will one day post the full militaria group on the forum (its currently between 2 countries!) One could question the ethics of splitting up any part of the group.... from the uniform insignia to the medals, to the stick pins, cap badges etc etc. Strictly speaking they are a collectable group which I can attribute to one man. But then again, it probably only means so much to me. Some might argue that the medals and uniform might want to stay together but the rest can be sold off seperately! As I see it, the full group belongs together and should never be split! Even if I am not into Austiran or German militaria, I treasure these items and would never dream of splitting them up. IF they ever had to change hands, then I would only sell them off as a full group. Of course, when old 'papa' passed on 5 % of his remaining items to his direct nephew and the remaining 95% to me (on the quiet) I find myself in the uncomfortable position of not being able to ask for the remaining 5% to re-unite all the items. Nor did 'papa' feel he was doing anything wrong when he split his old items that had lain in the cellar for over 50 years! Just to throw some light and tackle this discussion from yet another angle. Jim

In my part of the world a "moire" ribbon can also be described as a "watered silk" ribbon Whereas I never asked the question myself, I have always thought that as the name implied, this must be some sort of water based process at manufacture. SOURCE: Wikipedia "Watered silk is a type of silk fabric which has been passed through a set of rollers as a fabric finishing process, to give the surface a moir? pattern which looks like a water surface." SOURCE: http://www.virtue.to/fabric/12_Silk.html Watered silk: a term which is applied to two different techniques. 1: Silk that has had a design printed on the warp before weaving. After it is woven, the design looks as if it had been dampened, or made indistinct or 'watery'. 2: Moire: this silk (or other fabric) looks as if it is some kind of optic interference pattern. Which is somewhat what it is. Two lengths of heavy-thread silk are dampened and then smushed together with great force; where the threads cross (or not) they are pressed down in a unique pattern. Also can be done with engraved rollers. I think this pretty much answers your query in brief! Jim

"felt" vs "matboard" As some of you may know...me and my collection have been parted. When opening up a couple of my felt backed frames to pack the medals, I smelled a strong metallic smell in a couple of the frames. Whereas the air in my frames does not circulate much and each frame may host anywhere between 10-20 medals, I get the feeling that the technically "acid free" felt backing I was using for these 2 frames was in fact not acid free at all! Its amazing how one brand of felt differs in manufacture to another! I believe its not so much the felt itself but the adhesive used to attach the felt to the back of the frame that does the damage! I believe that a sheet of acid free matboard as redcross proposed will probably go a long way to providing for good safe display and I will surely replace the backing in these 2 particular frames to see how this works out. I will keep you posted with the results...... although of course.... it might be a while! I trust Gerd will too. Like that we can compare the results and benefits of shifting from felt and cardboard to matboard. Jim

Is the discolouration from the cardboard corrosion or lack of patination arising from contact with it. To explain myself: Did the cardboard corrode the existing patina? or: Did the cardboard prevent the back of the order from patination? Judging from the short period of time during which the 'damage' has occured and the fact that patination takes so much longer than a few months to develop, I would indeed say that the cardboard had a high acid content! Jim

Hey Kev..... My percpective is that of a collector. Granted that for sentimental reasons, group may be split up. Let me rephrase and just call that a pity as opposed to ignorance. Much as I would not like to, I can understand and even border on appreciating that different perspective! Then again there are groups and groups....although at the end of the day.... No group should even be split! And so the dilemma and discussion goes on..... Jim

5 medal kolodkas are somehow rather convenient for this sort of thing - maybe being most commonly available? Again, in Belaruski's case we can see how a group with soiled ribbons and all can still be a fictitous group! Jim

Hi Ed, I passsed on that group myself. I thought the price was right but the group was not and although I was interested, I admit that I was the partisan medal that really caught my eye. So believeing the bar not to be a group, I would have had no objection to research it via the bravery medal before taking the bar apart (if reserach showed that this was a fictitous group) Weird or not, combinations of medals do not really impress me as somebody with a few scores of different medals can make some very interesting groups! Documentation and research however as always prove or disprove these groups. I am therefore usually very skeptical about such groups and I personally would rather invest research on higher end orders that remain unresearched!! In any case, I hope that your gamble and research pays off and that the bar turns out to be a group! Keep us posted. Jim

Stepped onto this thread today! Lovely group Martin! Treasure it. Jim

Although I always feel that a recipient should be allowed to do what he wants with his medals .... after all they are HIS award for deeds of valour, bravery or service and it is the state or country that is for ever in debt to HIM (and not vice versa just because they gave him a medal or two!) He is therefore, in my opinion, free to split his group as he pleases and sell or give them away if he may! I would however go so far as to say that if he choses to split the group, I do not think it is unethical - just ignorant. It is unethical if a group passed on or sold to someone else is split up thereafter! Jim

Here goes!!! I reformatted my computer some days ago so I lost some stuff Hope this helps for some! http://www.soviet-screwbacks.com/cgi-bin/o...ng=0&ref=ok Jim

That was done for Russian Soviet medals and orders and I think with great success, a group is reunited here and there!! I'll look up the link and post it.... Of course its only applicable to the russian stuff but for those of u unaware.....its a start!

Hi Soviet! I missed this thread as I was travelling! Very interesting pics! Of course one's imagination can never come anywhere close enough to seeing a "photo"! As many communist images were pulled down in Russia, think of the hassle to pull this down! Maybe it might have even made it to becoming one of the severn new wonders of the world! Jim

Ouch! That must still hurt a fair bit! Is my impression that german soldiers back in the 2ww had a booklet with some regulations that specified that the use of dum dum bullets was not permitted..... or am I dreaming or simply confusing this with something I read many years ago? Jim

As a young man in 1993 I was in exactly that same position when I started collecting Russian ODM's. Then again.... it was not so hard to go so wrong way back when!!! I regret I regret I regret so much!!! But I am happy nevertheless!!!! Jim

The same can well be said about orders and medals awarded to individuals! A unit was after all made up of men and one can therefore go on to challenge the morality of selling an individual's orders as well as a unit's!! It is immoral to sell stolen items.... that we all agree with! But as long as onwership is legal (orders, flags, whatever!!) then I see no problem with buying and selling such items! If the Russians prevent the sale of everything military, then we'd better start getting ready to give up collecting all together! Jim

So sad to see this as a recurring topic!! So very sad! Jim

Ed, I think that a translation of the 1943 decree could possibly help throw some light on the logic behind the changes. Of course.... till such decree can be made available and translated, we will not know if it helps or not! Catch 22! Of course it has been very interesting having the various contributions and suggestions. However, I too believe that we are far from identifying the logic behind the changes and at the end of the day, even when we do, we will still find ourselves asking why the 100 yrs of Lenin and the Distinguished service medals came along as they did! Notwithstanding, supposition or not, its good to hear what you guys think about this! Jim

I have dealt with Rokas once in past and the order I bought was infact original. However, I can also say that I have observed this seller with a number of fakes including T2 ORBs as well as some German EKs. I guess as a seller, you will get everything guaranteed but sadly, not everything is actually original! Nothing I can add about the docs. That's my two francs for you !! Jim