JimZ

Looks normal enough. As Andreas says worn but ok. The blue can be anything..... at all. Don't dwell on it. The ring may appear shabby but that's fairly normal. I doubt that anyone could have much incentive to fake these as they are common enough although of course, its may just be a matter of time! Jim

Looks more like they have done their time as Octoberists, graduated from Pioneers and are now one step away from Komsomol.... next step is Communitst party no? Imagine sending the kids at school those badges in the 60's . Oh the times they are a changin! Nice thought though. Jim

Question is.... Will this be THSE exception to the rule or will research eventually turn up more Glory awards for non combat related merits...... You can get Hero title for sports, Lenin for milking cows, Red Banner and others for long service (aka staying power).... Least of all Glory.... wonder how this could eventually unfold. Jim

OOOHHHH !!! And may I add very very seriously that for those of you collecting USSR and US medals, you now have to watch out for both the FBI and KGB! Better safe than sorry! You have been warned! Jim

Ha ha..... Bush thinks that he can fob the American nation into looking foir "Omsa" instead of "Osama" .... And looks like he stands a wee better chance of finding "him" don't you think? Good one Ed..... defo much better than "the stolen valour act"!!! What a name anyways...... maybe should have simply been called "Possession of Medal Act" ...... or maybe even "We Want all the Toys to Ourselves Act". Sounds like that to me! Jim

Definition of fake: Adjective - Having a false or misleading appearance; fraudulent. Noun- One that is not authentic or genuine; a sham. As long as a non-original piece is sold and described as a copy or reproduction, then if someone wants to spend money on it....by all means if it makes you happy! Call it a replica, copy, museum copy, restrike or reproduction - its still not original. The transition to fake is made when a seller knowingly passes on a replica, copy, museum copy, restrike or reproduction as an original. From that point onwards, the item starts to be a fake as there is now the intention to mislead or deceive a buyer. I honestly think that a reproduction or any gap filler by any other name is not worth having and does not belong in a collection displayed amongst other genuine ODMs. My opinion of course! Jim

Hi Jeff, My comments and anyone please correct me if I am wrong would be as follows: 1) I do not like the mark around the screwpost base either. Weldmarks perhaps??! 2) Mondvor mark looks heavily set and too high up for observed pieces. If you draw a straight line from the base of the top arm of the star, the top of the mintmark should just about touch that imaginery line. 3) The serial number seems to be in the right range for the piece in question. The enamel looks foggy but that could be the photo. The hammer and sickle do not look right particularly the handle of the sickle as well as the hammer head but that could once again be the photo or wear and tear. What I surely do not like about this piece is that the sickle and hammer on the edge of the reverse should have more definition on the outline of the reverse. They do not seem to have the right shape in my opinion. I also think that the base of the central shield does not look good and is not clean enough. PMD picture shows a Monvor mint mark with "O" stamped into it. This one the also shows the same mark. My question is: is the "O" a standard mark for the Mondvor red stars in the range (PMD 6976 vs 6893 on the auction.... less than 100 ORSs away.....) or is it just an imitation of the PMD one?? I do not like this piece and I would not put any serious money on it. However someone does seem to think this order is worth $312. Of course, I may be wrong and someone else right, but I personally would not take that risk. Hope this helps. Jim PS - I also tend to take most "eB?y" auctions out of Germany or on the German site with lots more than just a pinch of salt!

Erm Rick..... This and the Sotheby Auction thread really pushed all the wrong buttons for you didn't they But I guess you say...in not too many words what many of us think notwithstanding the country making the ban!! Jim

Ha.... Should I run for congress?? Will I have the backing of OMSA members Jim

Christian, Very sadly this is another fake piece with serial number 416. It is not the piece listed earlier as 1604. The common numbers are just a coincidence... after all there are only 0-9 as numbers to chose from even though the variations of these are infinite There are a few of these totally fake OSMs coming up and its going to be impossible to track them all. Fact is they will always crop up with a different serial number. But from their obverse low quality they are so far fairly easy to detect that I am not worried about them yet. The real concern comes about when the original 3rd class is dolled up to look like a 2nd or 1st Class especially when PMD's Historical Research is no longer comfortable to authenticate these. Jim

Well, My ongoing analysis of fakes is by far not targetted at the experienced collector. I do in fact have the more inexperienced "newbie"0 in mind and when I see good money being spent on what I can only call RUBBISH, I do really feel for the person in question. On the other hand, I cannot but think of anyone approaching collecting armed with nothing at all is like walking into battle without a gun! Not saying you're gonna make a killing but at least you armed as a start and what you do with the knowledge is at the end of the day your business. Take the Otlichnik badges as an example. I have seen some on e-bay at very interesting prices. I can say that I have never looked at these items, that I have never researched or followed them up as they are not within my area of expertise. I do however know that these are heavily faked. I do try to inform myself about them. But even if the price looks good, I am still not ready to spend say $25 - $35 on a badge that I know could cost around $150 if I really and honestly feel that I do not know what I am buying even if the amounts are small. Buying 10 such otlichnik badges would add up to over $300 and I'd rather own one good genuine OGPW 1st class than 10 possibly fake badges. With limited financial resources there should be no room for speculation. And so it should be. If one is seriously interested in any area of collecting, then one should arm himself with books and literature and of course ask for the help of other collectors before being ready to spend his money! I do hope that this forum on fakes does pick up and that other collectors take to the idea of posting observed fake material onto the various threads. In such manner, we can provide a database for those who may not yet have their sources of verification. If these threads at least manage to 'scare' newbies into not buying medals at random and instead, get them to first invest in the proper literature, then I believe this particular forum would have reached its goal by bringing about more awarness that all the glitters out there is definitely not gold. Jim

Why is it the "stolen valor" act? I'd understand someone buying medals and wearing them and passing them off as his own decorations. That is indeed stolen valour and someone who does treat ODMs in such disrespectful manner ought to get prosecuted for fraud amongst other things. But what is wrong with buying medals from heirs or even awardees themselves should that be the case? As I see it, an act of bravery or valour is an obligation, a debt the country has to the indivdual perfoming such act..... for which the country tries to even its debt by awarding a medal or order. In doing so the country does not really ever make up its debt... let alone turn the table on the awardee. The award belongs to the awardee to do with it as he pleases, be it wear it with pride, lock it up in a cupboard for safekeeping or display it for others to see .... or maybe even sell it for some or any reason. This is even more so for the heirs of the awardee. What is important as I see it is that the medal finally comes to rest in the hand of someone who will appreciate it more than many, say heirs, would. There is no stolen valour in that. Of course I do not collect US medals so I am not taken aback by such an act. But I do think that if countries like Russia and the US are going to get into these things then, other countries may easily follow suit. Jim

EKs as far as the eye can see. Very Yummy! Welcome aboard Jim

I must say that at first glance these new awards remind me of the Iron Cross 2nd class and the Star of the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross save for the eagle and the crown of course.....although the crown and the oakleaves..... Well a black cross framed in Silver can hardly make me think of anything else and I admit I find that very ironic when one considers what Poland was up against in WW2 as well as after the war when forming part of the Warsaw pact. Was there any older Polish ODM of similar design from which inspired the design of this particular award? As in the case of the Russian Glory which now under the Russian Federation has gone back to looking like the St. George Cross..... I mean, lets be honest... One I hardly fault the design of the EK or anything that looks remotely like it as it is one of my fave medals as far as design goes ..... but still very curious to know where the design came from. Jim

OOOOH I missed this thread. Just came back from travelling to find that GMIC has a facelift I don't quite yet like..... I was totally unaware that there were any regulations whatsoever about the sale of Soviet ODMs out of Ukraine. In fact, I was also under the very strong impression that it was Ukraine that was largely supplying the market (with of course some Western speculators divesting their investment!). Maybe a misapprehension on my side? As far as Russia is concerned, I do not think one can argue legal vs ethical. I'd like to see anyone argue with Ivan at Customs as to how taking a Red Star or a 1985 OGPW out of the country is somehow ethical when it is blatantly illegal by virtue of some law or other I could not quothe. Of course the situation of a tete a tete between Ivan and anyone close to me has yet to happen But I'd really like to know the outcome of such a discussion. Of course one may try to slip Ivan the odd buck... although I somehow would not advise it unless one wants to risk an even longer stay in Russia Of course offering a bribe would set all ethical arguments up in smoke! But on a more serious note, the fact of the matter is that irrespective of what measures, ODMs still find their way out of Russia and the Ukraine. The export is illegal - period. Possibly some times the ODMs were obtained through unethical means. Where does that leave us? How they were obtained will remain a big question mark to most, and whether a particular piece was stolen or sold will more often then not, never be answered. Hope that helps us all sleep better tonight! Jim

Well that would very well account for the wear on it by constant handling!!! I do look at it and keep thinking of my 15 year old nephew for some reason or other....him and his Che Guevara T shirts! Speaking of nephews and totally (although not much of a topic) I will see my nephew in the coming days as I visit my own homeland And so looking forward!!!!

Dave Further to your translation would it be right to that a Prekaz is a battlefield/front award awarded by whichever competent/relevant militaryauthority was around to give that award as opposed to an Ukaz which would be issued by the Presidium during peace time when the awards could be handed out in a more organised and centralised manner. Not sure I explain what I have in my head well enough! Jim

указ: a decree or an edict приказ: by order or command OR an office as in a ministry etc I guess they are to be translated within the full context of the document. Maybe someone who has come across them in actual documents can help you a bit better than I can. Jim

Never seen anything like that .... but whatever it is I kinda like it! What's its actual size?

As Gerd indicated these do seem restricted to certain particular orders primarily the earlier variations. Perhaps the more labour intensive orders requiring lots more manual input to piece together than later variations. But still why mark the pieces. Surely there were more effective ways of "quality control" than stamping or engraving a workers initials in a state order! Would make slightly more sense to me if these marks were mint specific rather! Jim

So to kick this off.... I must say that I am impressed by the number of fakes on sale on on the German site of one of our fave auction sites. Admittedly, alot of the items I have posted have infact come off that site. It seems that not only are there terrible cheap fakes but also some high quality fakes with fake documents complete with pics, stamps and all. Clearly a market of its all. My first question is - why is there such a wave of fakes in Germany? And more importantly.... why do such fakes sell for sometimes relatively good money! As I see it a fake can in no way at all substitute an original. I am a firm non-believer in gap fillers and have often displayed my collection in half empty frames. However, from the observed trend on this german site, it seems increasingly evident that either 1) bidders are unaware of what they are buying 2) bidders are finding originals too expensive so are resorting to fakes as a replacement 3) bidders are just keen on having a full display of originals and fakes and do not really care what they spend to fill those gaps! Either way !!!!! Anyone got any ideas? Jim

Rule: This thread is to reserved for general comments and discussion regarding fakes but is not to be targetted at any one particular Order, Decoration or Medal. Discussion is to include observed trends in the fake market, or any other related matters or items noted that should be brought to the attention of our collecting community.

True... and yet not all of them are marked .... Neither are the marks all consistent ......

Badly cast repro/copy/fake - obverse [attachmentid=63744]

Reverse of 2nd class fake/copy/repro numbered 416 [attachmentid=63743]