Gordon Craig

GODISHIGH, Nice looking award. According to the luxembourg link below this is the Order of the Oak Crown. Regards, Gordon https://sip.gouvernement.lu/dam-assets/publications/brochure-livre/minist-etat/sip/brochure/Distinctions_honorifique/Distinctions_honorifiques-EN.pdf

I would like to add one more tunic to this thread. This tunic came with yet another type of medal for this type of shooting contest. The are indications on the tunic that there were many more shooting badges on it at one time. Unlike the previous tunic this one comes with a cuffband showing the club that the owner of the jacket belonged shot with. The shoulder boards are removable. Regards, Gordon

BURGERHAUS, Thanks for your comments. I can not answer your questions but perhaps spolei will. In the meantime, here are pictures of some of the different varieties of the pins/medals that can be awarded in this type of competition plus another picture of the bird involved.

I suggest that a lot more pictures would be needed to provide an informed answer to your question. But to start with, the ribbon doesn't look right to me nor does the loop that it is passed through. Regards, Gordon

GODISHIGH, This could be a reasonable price for this award considering the enamel damage and the replacement ribbon. You will only be able to assess the amount of enamel damage once you have it in hand. From the photos, I see at least the points of three stars on the obverse that have enamel damage and at least one on the reverse with enamel damage. Regards, Gordon

Gentlemen, Several years ago I started conversing with a chap in Europe re these types of badges. He told me that he had access to what he called a "rag mill" where discarded clothing was ground up for recycling purposes. He was able to have the badges removed from the tunics before they were destroyed. I asked him if he could get me some tunics, complete with badges, from the rag mill and he was able to do that. Here is one of the tunics that I now have in my collection.

ilclifton, Nice pictures of these things shown together. Thanks for posting them. Regards, Gordon

spolei, Thanks for explaining the "bird" parts on the badges. I wasn't aware of this before so your explanation is very useful. Regards, Gordon

spolei, Thanks for adding to the thread and explaining about the many types of pins that are used within these organizations. Here as a picture of pins from my collection. Some of these pins may not be related to the schutzenvereine but they all came to me at the same time so I put everything in the photo. Regards, Gordon

Ladies and Gentlemen, Recently, a number of pins have been posted for post war Schutzenverein. This a subject rarely discussed on post war German forums so I would like to start one. If you have uniforms, pins, pictures etc of these organization please post them to this thread and add to our knowledge base on these shooting groups. To start with, here is a brief wiki article on this subject. Schützenverein From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "A Schützenverein (German for "marksmen's club") is in a local voluntary association found in German-speaking countries revolving around shooting as a sport, often target shooting to Olympic rules or with historic weapons. Although originating as a town militia, a Schützenverein has no military aspects and in many cases often has a more social than sporting purpose. Origins These associations originated in late medieval autonomous towns as a form of citizens' militia principally to defend the town. Germany Germany has over 15,000 Schützenvereine, with most of them affiliated to the "Deutscher Schützenbund" (German Marksmen's Federation, DSB) umbrella organization. The DSB was founded in 1861 in Gotha and revived in 1951 in Frankfurt am Main following World War II. The DSB's 1,500,000 members makes it the third largest sports organisation in Germany. Other organisations for sport shooting in Germany include the Bund Deutscher Sportschützen, "Bund der Militär- und Polizeischützen" and the "Deutsche Schießsport Union". These focus more on the sport and offer a wider variety of shooting styles and competition types than the DSB, particularly in the field of large-bore firearms. Each Schützenverein organizes shooting events, including at the very least an annual Schützenfest. Weapons used may include air rifles, air pistols, small bore weapons and crossbows. United States Schuetzenvereins were founded in the United States by German-Americans and acted as a social club for their communities. Each club had a range for target shooting and often also a bar.[2] Larger clubs could have extensive facilities such as an inn, dance hall, music pavilion, zoo, bowling alley, roller coaster, refreshment stands, athletic field, picnic grounds, and other amusements. It was common for tens of thousands of people to attend a major event. The popularity of these facilities began to decline in America around 1917, when the anti-German sentiment from World War I restricted the activities of German-Americans and led to the prohibition of the use of the German language in public. Many businesses and organizations changed their German names or dissolved. The American Schützenvereine were dealt another serious blow in 1919 when the "Prohibition Act" outlawed the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages, the consumption of which was casually mixed with shooting activities. Schuetzen Park in North Bergen, New Jersey and Schuetzen Park in Davenport, Iowa recall the tradition. The former Deutsch-Amerikanische Schützen Gesellschaft building stands at 12 St. Mark's Place in New York City's East Village, and has been a designated landmark since 2001. Most of you will not be aware that these clubs exist in America as well as in Germany. There are also shooting clubs in other countries but I am going to limit myself to Germany and the U.S.A. Here are a couple of pictures showing members of a German Schutzenverein. You will note that individual medals/awards are worn separately. However, I have a medal bar in my collection that I have pictured here as well. Anyone else out there with a schutzenverein medal bar? If so please show it. Regards, Gordon

Stuka f, Thanks for the response. Regards, Gordon

Very nice acquisitions. I always appreciate awards in their cases. Regards, Gordon

Gentlemen, I would like to add my 1945 issue of this medal. It weighs 32 grams (1.1 oz) with the ribbon attached. And it measures 35.69 mm wide (1.408 inches) by 45.16 mm high (1.742 inches). Regards, Gordon

Stuka f, Great photo of one mans medals. Hopefully you can get permission to post the owners picture and that he is wearing his medals in the picture. Regards, Gordon

Good day, A very good question. The pin looks to be from the pre war era. But there are so many of these badges it can not remember when it would have been used from memory. I'll have to look through my files and see what I can find. Regards, Gordon

Stuka f This is a new medal to me but I found this comment on DRACO's site on the web. Regards, Gordon Belgium: Palms for the Occupation of Rhineland. Veteran's unofficial award for the participants of the Belgian Occupational Forces of Rhineland after the end of the two World Wars. Besides of the Palms there also exist 2 other unoffical awards (Crosses) for the occupation of Rhineland. The Palms however is the one most rarely seen. FULL SIZE post WW2 1940 - 1945 Here is the picture of this medal from the DRACO site with a different ribbon than on the one you posted pictures of. Regards, Gordon

Paul, The Jan/Feb 2019 issue of the JOMSA has a good article on the medals awarded to the FEB. Regards, Gordon

David, Sorry for using the term WAF only. It stands for Wehrmacht Awards Forum. The forum can be found at wehrmacht-awards.com Regards, Gordon

Red Eagle, Great award. I need one of these myself! Regards, Gordon

David, There are a couple of places in Werner Haupt's book "ARMY GROUP NORTH - THE WEHRMACHT IN RUSSIA 1941-1945" where the 9.Luftwaffe Field Division is mentioned. On page 198 he says "The front situation at the beginning of 1944 showed the army group to be in the following positions as follows (from left to right)" These positions refer to a map in the book. "The Orienbaum bridgehead was surrounded by the newly arrived III Panzer Corps. Here, they had available: SS Police Division, SS "Nordland" Division, and the 10th and 9th Luftwaffe Field Divisions." On page 203 he says "The Soviets attacked without pause. The 2nd Shock Army penetrated into the Ropsha area, with the CVIII Rifle Corps, while elements of the 42nd Army occupied Krassnoe Selo. The pincers appeared to be closing around the 126th ID and the 9th Luftwaffe Field Division." Later he says "...Colonel Fischer (Commander of the 126TH ID) decided to quickly regroup the division and break out of the encirclement...." and "The majority of the 126th ID, the 9th Luftwaffe Field Division, and the 530th Naval Artillery Battalion made it through. The heavy weapons, almost all of the horses, and all baggage was left behind." This was the only mention made in the book, at least in the first half of 1944, of the 9th Luftwaffe Field Division. While this won't help much in your research it does confirm location the position of the unit of concern in January of 1944. The III Panzer Corps is mentioned latter in 1944 in action in this part of Russia but no mention of the composition of the corps. One suggestion I would like to make is that you ask your questions on the WAF if you haven't already done so. They have a sub forum for research on individuals in the Wehrmacht and there might be some useful info there. Regards, Gordon

Dom, Royal Marine groups usually command a higher price than Navy groups. I would say 250 pounds would be an average price depending upon condition.

Gentlemen, Here are the pictures from the zipfile. Paul, I don't see the shadow you are referring to. Perhaps you could tell me which of the photos have the shadow you are referring to. Regards, Gordon

Schwerpunkt, Ludwig Baer mentions TENO helmets in the English, single volume of his three volume helmet series in German. On pages 330 and 331 he talks a bout ""a special protective helmet made of improved steel (Edelstahl)), which was also known by the name of "Thale Steel" (Thalestahl) after the city of manufacture". There are no TENO decals on any of the helmets pictures on these pages. He also mentions that these special helmets were worn by other organizations "rural police, field police, SS/SD, TENO, Army, Luftschutz". On page 332 Baer shows a picture of a light weight helmet with TENO decals. I had a quick look through Baer's three volume German helmet books and couldn't find anything on TENO helmets but perhaps I missed. I am leaving shortly for a flight to Florida so I didn'r have time to go through Baer's books with a fine toothed comb. Regards, Gordon

Interesting badges. New to me but very interesting. Thanks for posting these images. Regards, Gordon

Richard S. You may have already seen these articles but here is what I have found on the internet. A very nice award by the way. Please post a picture of the reverse of the award. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Black_Star http://www.liverpoolmedals.com/Order-of-the-Black-Star-of-Benin-Grand-Cross-neck-badge-and....html https://www.emedals.com/europe/france/french-colonial/order-of-the-black-star http://www.emering.com/medals/french/benin.html Reards, Gordon