kasle

Well, I think it is a dead end to suppose that the article in question is just a bad researched description of Verdienstorden. It was published in August 1901, while Verdienstorden was instituted on January 18, 1901 - and on the same day awarded at least to three persons, including Wilhelm II. So even from this perspective, the article from August can´t describe the Verdienstorden, if it speaks about a "new award intended for Graf von Waldersee". There is still a possibility that this award remained in prototype when Count von Waldersee refused it and took rather the PlM oaks. Wilhelm II could be very well aware of the fact that this would happen to him often with high ranking officers. These guys were definitely not in love with Kronenorden, regardless of the class.

I am aware of that similarity, there are just a few issues with it: - The article clearly states "Es ist das Grosskreuz des königlichen Kronenordens" (It is a Grand Cross of the Royal Crown Order). - The description of the ribbon fits the Kronenorden (blau Band - blue ribbon), not the Verdienstorden (blue ribbon with two golden stripes). - According to the article, the award was worn as a neck order ("um das Hals getragen"), whilst the Verdienstorden (Order of Merit of the Prussian Crown) was worn as a sash badge.

I´ve stumbled upon this article from period press about a "new" order, the Grand Cross of the Royal Order of the (Prussian) Crown, published in 1901. Here is the translation: "About a new decoration. The showcase of the Royal Court Jewelers J. Godet & Sohn, Friedrichstraße 167, in which a new decoration was exhibited, apparently intended by the Emperor for the returning Field Marshal Count von Waldersee, allured great attention. It is the Grand Cross of the Royal Order of the Crown, consisting of a large eight-pointed blue enamel cross with a Roman W II with the crown in the four corners and the motto "God with us" in the center. This cross is worn on a blue ribbon around the neck, accompanied by a golden star to be worn on the left breast, which looks almost exactly like the star of the Grand Cross of the Order of the Red Eagle, with the only difference that the star of the Royal Order of the Crown contains the above-mentioned motto." 1. According to German Wikipedia, KO was instituted in four classes and there is no Grand Cross degree, only 1st Class neck decoration with breast star. According to English Wikipedia, there is a Grand Cross degree (and four additional classes) but the description for both Grand Cross and the 1st Class is in fact the same. The examples shown match the description in the article regarding the breast star, but not the neck cross ("large eight pointed blue enamel cross with...the crown in the four corners"). 2. The article says the "order" is new, while the Order of the Prussian Crown was established in 1861. There were some following updates, but none of them took place in 1901 and/or included the Grand Cross degree. 3. According to available sources, Count von Waldersee received oakleaves to his Pour le Mérite upon returning from China. I would appreciate if someone can help me to explain what is going on here. Personally, I can find explanation only for the 3rd point, although without any evidence. Graf Waldersee was probably not comfortable with possible receiving of the Crown Order, even though in the highest degree, so the Kaiser decided to rather award him with oaks to PlM. But for the previous two points I can not find any explanation.

Just as a side note to your discussion: It took a lot of wishful thinking to make Yevg.(rafovich) from abbreviation which is clearly Serg.(eevich). I bet your (Tifes) method used was first looking for matching last name and then trying to "bend" the rest of engraving to expected form. But regardless of how deep your knowledge of Russian is (I spent 10 years learning it, speaking and writing fluently), your results are pure fantasy, or as I said, wishful thinking. I am also not aware of any reform that would make "N" from clear "A", which is identical in Latin as well as in Cyrillic. Before we spend a fruitless debate of who is better in Russian, I would like to say I am not aware of any orthography reform in Russia or anywhere else that allowed to write the same letter in two different ways - When letter "v" in word "Popov" is transcribed as "b", it can not be transcribed as "p" in word Yevg. It is just another word ("p" is "r" in azbuka). It is a question of pure logic. Shortly said, I recommend to return back to the beginning. That is not that Popov.

Well, there indeed are many modern copies of Grand Cross, where the terms "period wearer´s copy" or "period display copy" is used to increase the value and to fool the buyers. But there are also many pieces, where this term sits as butt on toilet, as we say here, because their period provenance is backed by photos, or other evidence. For example Juncker Grand Cross (1870er as well as 1914er), which was never an awarded piece, is shown in their period catalog. Zimmermann Grand Cross 1914 was found in Zimmermann hoard. If we take into account also the fact how many "period wearer´s copies" of EK1 1914 are out there - and we like them, because there belong all those clamshells, cruciforms, oval screwbacks, mouse traps and ladders - your meaning as general thought is completely wrong.

Regarding Elmar´s Grand cross, it is probably a period display piece or wearer´s copy as well: In Wernitz, there is a reprint of the GK 1914 from Aurich collection together with etui and overcarton. The most of differences between that piece and Elmar´s one are at the reverse. Reverse of Aurich´s piece resembles 1813 GK with Roman style of numeral 1 (horizontal serif on top and bottom), while Elmar´s piece have common serif 1 with tilted cap. The numeral 3 is completely different, as well as the reverse crown. On the other hand, the frame looks to be a match to Aurich´s piece.

The thread starter is a genuine wearer´s copy from interwar era made by Godet Berlin, just for the record.

These two pieces don´t belong together but I have very similar problem with them. I am not sure with correct interpretation of some ribbons. 1. What do you think, is it correct to describe this button as Reuss one, with combined Ehrenkreuz with and without swords (and at least one of them with the crown)? 2. This ribbon bar has interesting ribbon combo on the last position. Peacetime Saxonian FAM ribbon, partially covered with Prussian Long service ribbon in 8 mm width. Is it just a saving of the space, or is there some other explanation of this merging? Thank you in advance

I have this one somewhere here, feel free to contact me if interested.

Thank you very much for your answers.

I would appreciate your opinion on this enameled version of Prussian LS clasp model 1825. What do you think, does this one represent 3rd class or 2nd class? Thanks in advance.

Hello, I would like to know your opinion about this cross. Thanks in advance. It is three piece construction with magnetic core.

Maybe not Turkish medal at all, as it doesn´t have typical Turkish suspension. But the date (if I read it correctly) says 1293, which would fit to 1877 Russo-Turkish war. Thank you very much in advance for any help.

I am wondering which kind (or type) of Johanniter is this one. Thanks in advance for any help.

At first, this is not full size badge, but miniature. Whether it is period miniature, hard to say. I would be happy with it, depending on the price. Btw, the badge from the first Gordon´s link is not wartime original either, but a postwar privately purchased piece. Just like this mini.