W McSwiggan

I've copied and sent this to the Rickmeister. Will post his response when received.

Rudi - was that all awards of this class or just with swords?

Sadly I do not have access to Nimmergut’s multi-volume set that might shed more light. In my library – the only source of information on this order is O’Connor – volume VII. He stated that the order was created on 1 May, 1840 and continued until the armistice in 1918. Swords were added in 1849. Knight’s cross grade was divided into 1st & 2nd class in 1859. Per O’Connor prior to WWI the award was liberally awarded without swords. Swords awards were rare limited to the war of 1870 & colonial service (on active duty on May 6, 1914 there were only 40 officers holding the order with swords). Post war publications showed one knight’s 1st class to an admiral and one knight’s 1st class to a marine infantry Oberleutnant Heinrich Betz. O’Connor could find no sources for Army awards. O’Connor was confident that few (“Only a handful”) Army Swords awards were made. He sites the Reichsheer rank list of 1924 and Navy list of 1926 showing 2 and 0 swords awards respectively.

I've never seen one as light as yours or quite as dark as Bob's. The original I have shows significant bronze high lights. Of course mine sat in the traditional shoe box until I had the stuff mounted - sadly costing me the original ribbon. My point being - medals and ribbons do not always remain sets so the ribbon without addenda does not necessarily make your medal a US reproduction. The finish on your medal and the casting details that do not match Bob's or mine suggest that your example is not an original (issued or otherwise) from South Vietnam. Appurtenances for this award were: Palm for award at ARVN level Gold Star for award at corps level Silver Star for awards at division level Bronze Star for awards at regimental level Regards wem

You are so correct - horrible omission on my part

The agencies that I know of that were involved included the Boston & Watertown Police from directly involved communities. From the Commonwealth (State) level - the State Police and Metropolitan Boston Transit Authority Police. Federal agencies were the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives plus the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I am sure that other municipalities were also involved reinforcing those mentioned. I heard mention of New Hampshire State Police involvement as well. Massachusetts National Guard Troops and equipment were also involved. I suspect this listing is not exhaustive and more forces were also used. The police presence in Boston and surrounding communities was amazing. There was investigative work going on (including detentions) as far away as New Bedford (South Coast Massachusetts) in the vicinity of my town - one of the suspects (the survivor) was a student at the State University near-by.

Just off the phone with Rick - has heat, power and has cornered the market on world supply of snow! All is well and normal in central Massachusetts!

You may have trouble with contact for a bit - we've just had a huge blizzard! I had to travel to another state just to enjoy electricity! Trees down - power out - no heat! Life is grand!!! Haven't been able to get to Rick but will try again soon. I will try to update you.!

Daniel Thank you very much! Clearly a huge effort - very much appreciated. Will share with Rick Research as I know he will be interested. Regards, Wayne

Daniel - any chance you could post a listing of the triples? Regards, Wayne

O'Connor makes only a fleeting reference citing victories on page 325 of volume 7.

Wonderful bar! Will extend your greetings on next speaking.

Just spoke with Rick Research about this thread and specifically, triple awards of the Hanseatic Cross. He suggested that amongst the Hanseatic regiments, there were (more than one might expect) a number of instances of triple awards. He could not access his data at the time we spoke so could not provide numbers.

Thinking it might be a miniature reproduction of a "pickel plate" I tried to find it in Turinetti's handbook. Couldn't - sorry but in puzzling, sometimes a no is almost as important as a yes. Good luck!

Whoa! Am I mistaken or does the ribbon bar in the lower right corner of post #34 have all three Hanseatic Crosses??? Sure looks like it to me! While no expert, I suspect that this individual is something special! In O'Connor's volume 7, he identifies only one aviator (medal magnets that they were) who was awarded all three - yup - Manfred von Richthofen. Clearly this was not his bar but how many can there be? Even Udet had to settle for two!

Neat bar - thanks for sharing. I suspect awards are mounted in order won. Just a guess - wasn't that the proper manner of wear at one point?

He looks enthralled but... is it the Iron Cross or the Iron Boobs??? Troops get like that after a long stay at the front you know!

Not to be picky but post #3 is Hamburg not Bremen. Very nice bars. No multiple Hanseatic Cross bars yet? Rather rare I know but neat!

What a great prophet! I'm drooling... come on - bring it on! BTW - one of my favorite early readings was "Falcons of France".

In fairness, I’ve just done some follow up reading of Previtera. While it is clear that the full sized, issue medals of the Pour le Mérite had eagles with no crowns with the single exception of an unknown maker in the 1800s, it was common to find minis on bows made by Godet with crowned eagles. Normally the crowned eagles were part of the grand cross insignia (5 awards) and this mini is clearly not a grand cross. So is it real or not – I have no idea!

I do not specialize in the medals - rather the information hence I would ask one more expert than I to comment. It is my belief that the PlM eagles were not crowned. It is possible that whoever created the mini-PlM did so with crowned eagles I suppose. Again - I'm no expert but I suspect that this chain was "assembled" not original. The components may all be original & vintage while the assembly is not. Consulting with others - PlM minis are normally on bows - not chains. This is because the clothing normally worn with chains would call for the wear of the cross at the throat. Less formal wear normally would have the cross alone on a bow as you have shown. I suspect that your cross was originally on a bow. Again - just my guesses - lets see what others think.

Whoa! PlM Eagles are not crowned! Johanniter yes - PlM no. Not sure what is going on with this chain but I'm concerned. Bogus order of precedence, strange selection of awards, non-matching attaching loops.

While I will not claim to be the smartest guy around here – I’ve been interested in Imperial orders and decorations for about 15 years. I do not collect (other than books) rather – study for understanding of the “system” and the historical soldiers. The joy of Imperial German awards is their complexity and the often quirkiness of bestowals. All that said, in my opinion – the Friedrich’s Order is pretty much the norm for Imperial Orders in terms of complexity. Because there are distinctions, easily observed distinguishing the Grand Cross, Commander Cross and two levels of Knight’s Cross – this is actually one of the easier orders to identify. For many there is no such differentiation other than size. Check Prussian Red Eagle, Crown & Hohenzollern for example. On your chain – we can not state with complete confidence that the Hohenzollern is a knight’s cross. It could be a Commander’s Cross and there is some justification in wondering about that! Welcome to the world of Imperial!

Guess a picture is worth a thousand words... Thanks Dave

To atone for my sins – the least I can do is take the confusion out of the badge recognition. Knight’s Cross, 2nd Class of the Friedrich’s order is a matte silver cross with a crowned F in the center medallion surrounded by a silver ring. Knight’s Cross, 1st Class of the Friedrich’s order is a gilt cross enameled white with a crowned F in the center medallion surrounded by a gilt ring. There are flames between the arms of the cross and all higher grades. Commander’s Cross, 1st and 2nd Class of the Friedrich’s order is a gilt cross enameled white with a crowned F in the center medallion surrounded by a blue enameled ring carrying the motto of the order – “God and My Right”. There are flames between the arms of the cross. Grand Cross of the Friedrich’s order is a gilt cross enameled white with a bust of King Friedrich in relief in the center medallion surrounded by a blue enameled ring carrying the inscription – “King Friedrich of Württemberg”. There are flames between the arms of the cross. The Commander 1st Class and the Grand Cross also wore stars of varying design on the breast. All classes could be awarded with swords. The grand cross could be awarded with crown as a special mark of distinction. The insignia depicted on the chain shown is that of a commander – class unknown.