Trajan

6245 Muleteer, Macedonian Mule Corps, is Costis, Georghi. Trajan 6245 Muleteer, Macedonian Mule Corps, is Costis, Georghi. Trajan

The real point is (no pun intended!) that German soldiers believed they would be badly treated if found with a sawback. Like the babies spitted on a bayonet, the 'terrible' sawback bayonet and the wounds it inflicted, often after the bayonet had been purposely covered with faeces, was Belgian propaganda put out to counter the fact that the Belgians were still in the public eye for their treatment of the natives in the Congo, which included, inter alia, double hand amputations Anyway, the German General staff managed to stiffle that belief, common in the first 12-18 months of the war only, after researching the matter. But the belief was resurrected in 1916 or so presumably after the S.84/98 - many with sawbacks - started to become the bayonet of choice for trench-raiders. Hence the order to remove the sawbacks from all front line troops and then the de-sawbacking for re-use there. Trajan

I don't think it has any other meaning that a factory 'check-mark'. I have seen them on other 98/05's and will re-check my Waffenfabrik's to see if any of these are marked that way.

Coming back to this one - is the scabbard of the bayonet that started this thread?

Incidentally, as most will know, the sawbacked versions of the 98/05, etc., formed 6% of each distribution per unit (except pioniers). Yet when looking at unit-marked versions of 98/05's, they have surived in greater numbers than 6%. Obviously, these were the ones chosen as 'bring-backs' over the plain types. Note also, it is a da** sight harder to find a sawback removed than one with a sawback! It took me 9 years of searching shops and flea markets to eventually find one! Trajan

It is still not entirely clear why some bayonets are double-marked like this although the accepted explanation is that the mark on the right hand ricasso is the blade maker, and the mark on the left the bayonet finisher, i.e. the concern that made it ready for use. The Gebruder Heller bayonets on record are all dated to between 1915-1917, but it seems that only the sawbacked versions have the Erfurt stamp. My feeling and explanation for this is that Heller did not have the equipment for adding the sawback. Gebr.Heller did make cold saws, but the teeth of a sawback have to be set diagonally to each other just as is the case with a wood-cutting saw to create the necessary kerf. Trajan

Any comments on this one? I am lacking a Greek version, and was thinking of buying this as a place holder and getting the clasp restored... TIA, Trajan

A quick internet search suggests RV Pforzheim were the most common maker - is that correct?

Reviving this thread as I have always been interested but have not collected these ones. BUT, I have just been offered a ribbon-less crossed swords 39 RV Pforzheim - what is the significance of these numbers?

The clasp is indeed upside down and looks to be the one for 'Irak'. Trajan

This group went to a Wilhelm Renk, served from the beginning to the end (I have the paperwork), ending as an Unteroffizier. Enjoy!

Happy to help! I wonder if this was a requistioned example, given how highly decorated it is and the monogram - it went from private to state service?

33 Feld Artillerie Regiment, 5 Batterie, Waffe 4, by the look of things - that's 1. Lothringisches Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr. 33

Certainly an impressive group there! Can we have photographs after framing as well please? Trajan

And may they be consigned to the last of Dante's circles...

Great story and great research - thanks for sharing!

To your first point... A serving medical officer with Ottoman army (Major Zscech) can have an EK I and II, a Red Cross 3rd Class, a 'Hindenburg Cross', and a Medjidieh Order 3rd Class. A medic representing the Red Cross and attached to to the German forces (Zlocisti, See http://www.regimentals.co.uk/viewitem.php?id=47) has an 'honorary' rank of Captain. and an EK I and II, Red Cross 2nd and 3rd Class, and a Medjidieh Order 4th Class... The bar I have has a Medjidieh Order 5th Class so ranks lower than an 'honorary Captain' so this is awarded to a Leutnant??? Best match I know of is a Hekim Teğmen (= Physician Leutnant) F. Schmücke, serving in a hospital at Beirut. But not my field of research... Yes, I am fully aware there is a mistake there... I do KNOW that there should be a silver second class in front of the bronze 3rd class... Read my post... So, what was happened here? Think on it... A medal bar with two Prussian red cross medals but a zinc one where a silver one shuld be? My take. The silver went lost, but somebody knew what the ribbon was for and so put the zinc one there - note how it hangs lower than the rest. That person who replaced it KNEW it had to be a red cross medal but did know or did not have access to a silver one. I won't change it - piece of history as it is! I don't know how widely the König Ludwig cross was awarded - but wasn't it more a civilian decoration? Either way, the man ths bar belonged to was indeed a Prussian - and not "may be a medic", but I would think "certainly a medic", and an officer medic at that! Yes, of course a 1930's bar - it has a HK on it! I am not a complete dumbo!!!

Thanks - pride and joy really of my small collection! I have a selection of German state groups with EK's etc., but this is my only group with an Ottoman award as well.

Thanks - came from a reputable dealer in the UK but I am not really a medal collector, I just wanted some good examples of German WW1 medals 'to have and to hold'(!) with my small imperial geraman collection of bits and pieces!

Well, that's what I think it is! A rather mysterious piece bought in Ankara but with no background story It certainly relates to Prussian service under the Ottoman Empire but with with a few oddities - e.g., why a second Prussian Rotkreuzmedaille in zinc where a second class silver should be? I suspect to replace a silver that was lost... And the back-to-front VdK für Kriegshilfe next to the EK? Well, I have seen that in bars before. But why a Bavarian Ludwig Kreuz (non-magnetic) at the end for a Prussian? I have no problems with the unofficial veterans Verein medal at the very end as I have seen photographs of guys in the 3R Wehrmacht wearing these alongside their WW1 medals and HKreuz, despite what the 1935 rules said! A 'Combatants' HK with Red Cross medals would certainly seem odd(!) - but is not without parallel! Have a look at this group: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/berliner/catalogue-id-bahg10000/lot-4086fb7c-459c-42dd-8f47-a49d01669c78 It belonged to a Dr.Bernhard Zscech, a German officer who served with the Ottoman army in WW1, and who is listed as a Hekim Binbaşı or "Physician Major" in a Turkish list of German military officers in Turkey in WW1. He accumulated, inter alia, an EK I and II; a Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class; a 'Hindenburg Cross' for a Frontkaempfer'; and a row of Ottoman awards - Liakat-Medal, in silver with sabres, Imtiyaz medal in silver with sabres, an "Iron Crescent", or Harp madalya - and a Mecidiye Order 3rd Class. He is listed as serving at the Deniz Asker Hastanesinde or 'Sailors Hospital' and the Taşkışla hastanesi or 'Hospice' in Constantinople. The Ottoman Medjidieh in this group is 5th Class and so I suspect the recipient was a Leutnant - and I do have a candidate in mind.. But I would welcome all and any comments. Oh, and yes, I did wonder if it was a 'marriage' of medals that did not belong to each other - but a marriage getting a zinc Red Cross medal where a silver one should be and everything else in order?

Thanks so much Tomasz for that speedy reply! Here is what I have - I am not the best of photographers so in artificial light and in flash. Looks to be an original?

I have read and re-read these postings and remain confused as to what an official version of one of these looks like! I have a few German medal bars including a paired EK and Hamburg medal, so, which of the above is an official version please!

So, what is his name?

That is some piece! Can we see the photograph of the former owner?

Is that a feltt washer at the crossguard? Were these not used on dress bayonets only?