Wild Card

Hello stukapilot, I am sorry, but I think that you will find that your cross at one time had swords. Regards, Wild Card

Got it, thanks. I think that I will post my comments over there as well - :cheers:

Gentlemen, This is a matter of which we all should be concerned and to which I would like to add a couple of points. 1. Look to the title of this thread, “British Silver Medals in Danger?” A. This situation applies to gold medals as well. To a greater or lesser degree, I cannot say, but it is there. B. This problem goes far beyond British medals. Virtually any medal, order or other decoration is at risk. Areas to which I am more or less familiar where this would especially be of concern would include Imperial German, Imperial Russian, even Soviet, as pointed out by Jim Z. 2. To the people who buy and those who sell medals for their scrap value, the medal’s historical significance means absolutely nothing. To them it is simply a medal that weighs x. gr., is x% silver and says “Waterloo” on it, nothing more, nothing less. 3. My last point is rather ironic. This rise in commodity prices is often used as an excuse to raise the prices/”value” of medals on the collector’s market. Sure, a gold medal should be more valuable than it’s silver counterpart; but the value of the gold or silver should be a minor factor. 4. While the increase in gold and silver prices inevitably raises the prices of medals, when the prices of gold and silver decline, that decrease is rarely, if ever, is carried back to the price of medals - you know, like the price of gas. In the end, the answer to this situation, daunting as it is, can be boiled down to one word - education. As Chris Boonzaier said above “unless a seller really has no contact with a medal collectors market, there is no reason to sell them for silver value”. In a perfect world, everyone would realize that the old medal with “Waterloo” on it is worth far more as is than it would be if melted down for it’s silver content. Just one man’s opinion. Best wishes all, Wild Card P.S. I would like to suggest that this thread be moved to another venue (The Lounge?)where it would more likely come to the attention of all member collectors.

Okay, let’s try it again. She may not be pretty, but she sure is old and must be rare.

rujab, That is a beautiful and certainly unique chain. Surely it must be identifiable. The Hussein 1904 arts and science medal is the classic example of the art deco theme that we see in several other Hussein medals of that era. This influence is no doubt reflective of the Hussein royal family’s well known dedication (to this day) to the arts. One question - am i Seeing two Philip’s Order crosses there? Finally, please don’t think that your other minis in posts #248 and #249 are not appreciated. Since I, for one, will probably never see the full size version of these medals, it is nice to see them as such well done minis. Regards, Wild Card

So true, so true. I'm sorry Gentlemen, I have something quite unique that I wanted to post, but can not seem to overcome these ridiculous size constraints. :banger:

1. Hessen-Darmstadt - Philip’s Order? 2. Venezuela. Order of the Bust of Bolivar 7. Portugal. Order of Christ. 10. Portugal - Order of the Tower and Sword or Venezuela - Order of Merit (the motto ring will tell us which, I can not read it)

Yes David, there is what is referred to as the Schwerterkreuz, 1814-18, für Großherzog Ludwig I. von Hessen-Darmstadt. It is silver/gold plate and being 103.5 x 77 mm,, would, hopefully, have been worn around the neck. As far as awarding of the example shown above, as near as I can tell, they went to military personnel; but whether these awards were confined to officers only, I do not know.

Greetings David M, From George Seymour’s archives, here is a picture of a Hessen-Homburg Schwerrerkreuz. I know that George had one of these in his collection. Whether this is the one or not, I cannot say. As near as I can figure out (and I certainly could be wrong on this), 159 of these crosses were produced; but fewer than 10, perhaps only 5, were awarded. Regards, Wild Card

:beer:

I agree Beau. Really quite sloppy in places.

rujab, A fantastic group. Thank you for sharing it with us and congratulations, Wild Card

Hi JBFloyd, For what it’s worth - Back in 1981, I bought, and have long since sold, a cased Albert the Bear like this, the case of which had a label named to a Dr. (M) Martin le Maire. With it was a copy of his death notice. I am quite sure that he was Danish, or at least not German; but did, like your bar, have several other relatively significant awards from other German states. Now, just maybe... Best wishes, Wild Card

I doubt it, but there are others on this forum who may know something helpful.

Hello Lukasz Gaszewski, I have to say that I know virtually nothing about the decorations of the PR of China; but found your post to be very interesting. I have found other pictures of her on the net showing the same ribbons. The only thing that I could think of was to go to the OMSA site and see what they might have. I was surprised to see that not one of Comrade Peng’s ribbons matches up with anything on their database. Granted that their database probably does not encompass the full range of possibilities; but wouldn’t you think that one or two....? The mystery deepens. Hopefully one of our fellow members can provide some answers. Regards, Wild Card

Braunschweig at it's best! Absolutely breathtaking. :cheers:

:love: Way to go Beau!

:jumping: :beer:

That is one nice cross! :love:

Hello Eitze, I would say yes, with a couple of caveats. 1. Let’s say “...the main difference between the military and civil division is the adding of the military rank and unit/regiment in the naming”. 2. I have seen civil merit medals (not necessarily the first type, “twin” of the Guelphic medal) with a variety of titles including Knochenhauer, Schiffscapitian and Oberwachtmeister. 3. There is a third type (1841-1846) silver merit medal out there named to Kanonier V. D. Meyerkord 6pf Fuss Batt. With that in mind, if a man received the Guelphic medal and a 1st type civil merit medal, he would have two identical, but at the same time very different, medals. I do not know of any such case, but it is an interesting possibility, isn’t it? I have to tell you a story with a purpose. Some years ago, I was visiting a fellow collector who had a first type civil merit medal. The recipient had a rank and there was a regiment also. When I got home, I checked my copy of the Guelphic medal rolls (he did not have one) and, sure enough, there was his man! He had a Guelphic, not civil merit, medal. We should all be so lucky. So, if any of these medals come your way, check the rolls. Lastly, with regard to the rolls, a word of caution. Remember these medals were struck and named in England and that we are dealing with German names. As a result, the spelling of the names gets chopped up at times. An interesting example concerns a bugler in the 2nd line battalion of the King’s German Legion. In the Guelphic medal rolls, he is listed as Heinrich Freyhöfer; but in the British military general service medal rolls, he is listed as Heinrich Freihofer. Freyhöfer? Freihofer? Who knows? Good luck on those missing Braunschweig Waterloos. Thank you also for the compliments on the medal and the thread, and best wishes, Wild Card

Hello Monkey, This is very tricky. Notice the words “... this medal was also struck (rarely) in gold...” True, but my guess is that any of those medals that were struck in gold and awarded, were awarded as gold civil merit medals. Researching this subject, I find - 1. Hessenthal/Schreiber recognize only a silver medal. 2. In his magnum opus, Jörg Nimmergut quotes Thies/Hapke - “Es ist (lt. Akten Hannoversches Hauptstaatarchiv) sehr wahrscheinlich, daß die Guelphen-Ordens-Medaille auch in Gold verliehen wurde”, which I translate as “It is (according to records Hannoversches Central State Archive) very likely that the Guelphs-Order Medal was awarded in gold”. 3. The 1865 Hannoverian Hof und Staats Handbuch lists the living Guelphic medal recipients; but there is nothing to indicate that any of these medals were gold. 4. The award list of the Guelphic medal as compiled by Col. D. D. Vigors does not show any awards as being in gold. His only reference to the subject is - “Verwechslungen der Guelphen-Medaille mit der Silbernen Verdienst-Medaille, die zur gleiche Zeit gestiftet wurde und die verschiedentlich auch in Gold verliehen wurde, sind leichter möglich.” I translate this to say “Confusion between the Guelphs Medal with the Silver Medal of Merit, which was founded at the same time and was awarded in gold is easy”. He then goes on to describe how the two are identical, as are their ribbons. The key though is, as I translate and interpret it, he is saying that the merit medal was also (in this case meaning additionally) made in gold = silver (only) Guelph, silver and gold Merit. Should any of our German speaking members see this differently, please let us know. Beyond all of this, it just seems to me that if there were, in fact, any gold Guelphic medals awarded, they would have been recorded as such and well known. So until proof to the contrary is established, I am with those who say that the Guelphic medal is silver... only. Thank you for the compliment on the medal and best wishes, Wild Card

Now to confuse matters further it has the same reverse (and obverse) as the 1815-1831 Hannoverian silver merit medal. Again yes, the Guelphic medals and the 1815-1831 Hannoverian silver merit medals are identical. So how does one know which is which? Fortunately, in good Hannoverian tradition, the recipient’s name, title/rank, military unit (whatever might apply) is impressed on the rim of the medal; and fortunately the rolls to both the Guelphic medal and merit medals are available. The example shown here is impressed to * Diretrich Meyer Sergeant im 2t. Bat. K.D.L.*

Gentlemen, Congratulations and thanks for all of the wonderful pieces and related information that you have posted. I must say that this thread has exceeded the expectations that I had when I started it. One question that I have before I go any further - eitze, is there any Braunschweig regiment for which you do not have a Waterloo medal? Congratulations on a great collection. Going back through the thread, among a few decorations that have still not been posted is the Hannoverian Guelphic medal, so... It should be noted at the outset that the Guelphic medal was possibly the second German medal to be awarded to nco’s and other ranks for acts of bravery. The first thing that you will probably notice is the very proper British suspension. This is how these medals were awarded. Then shortly after Ernst August became King of Hannover in 1837, he instituted a number of changes to the statutes of the Guelphic Order; one of which was that henceforth the medal would have a regular ring type ribbon suspension. Apparently, not all medals were converted, so we see legitimate medals with both types. The second thing that you will notice is that the Guelphic medal might look very familiar. That is because, yes, it has the same obverse as the Hannoverian Waterloo medal.

Hello Monkey, Congratulations on your 1814 Prussian combatants war medal; it is a very fine example with very good relief and no corrosion. Your Hessen-Kassel medal looks very good as well, and yes the ribbon is correct and from the picture looks to me to be original. Jaybo’s comments are right on the mark and were very meaningful to me because this is exactly how and why I started my Imperial German orders and medal collecting. I won’t bore (or scare) you with the details as to what this has led to some thirty-five years later; but beware, it truly is a slippery and endless slope. Once you get the other three type two medals, you can go after the type ones; then of course, there are the four non combatants, and then... I agree especially with the sentiment that these medals are under appreciated; and as a result, undervalued. As you already know, aside from Prussia, the medals of this era from several of the other German states are many still available at very attractive prices. Have fun, enjoy the hunt and best wishes, Wild Card :cheers:

Excellent presentation and a beautiful bar of four. Thank you for sharing. :cheers: