JoeW

Another variation of an Ehrenwaffe pass. Sorry I had no notice that it was posted as I had not visited this illuminating thread before. And I thank you very much. The facts and figures are really interesting. I will see if I can add anything to the discussion.

A bit late to the party. Unfortunately the tunic set in the link is not for the Feuerschutzpolizei. It is a more common blue cloth set worn by the Feuerwehr- the common Voluntary Fire Department. The Feuerschutzpolizei were issued police green tunic, pants and visor with pink piping and black facings. Adjust your prices accordingly.

Same weapons as the rest of the police like the Schupo or Gendarmerie. The Water Police was a sub-branch of the Schupo. K98a rifles, P08s, small caliber pistols were issued senior NCOs or purchased by officers. Boat were equipped with Maxims, though I have a photo of a Water Police patrol boat that sported a Villa-Perosa light machine gun.

They were allegedly produced in Poland, but the purchase was from England. They are of course floating around in the US.

Any property or identity disc for a governmental organization such as the Gestapo or Kripo bearing an issue mark of the RZM has to be questionable if not outright fake.

Rick, they were listed under Schupo because the Wasserschutzpolizei was a branch of the Schupo. Its official abbreviation of SW indicated Schutzpolizei Wasser. I agree that the senior officer ranks showed more and more SS-Police ranks as the war progressed. But at the same time, many of the police background general officers, even with SS membership, were taking retirement and bailling out of the sinking ship. Political reliability was a necessity, so Himmler looked to non-police background men for the vacant positions. Yet there was a new wave of young policemen ready to assume the helm, graduates of Tolz and Braunschweig, many of whom were in combat batallions. They were trained in police duties after Tolz and Braunschweig and would have filled the void.

The RRL is alphabetized by ranks, isn't yours?

Rod, the SS-Police swords have received quite a bit of attention in published literature over the past thirty years. Most recently by Thomas Wittman in his work on SS blades. But I think perhaps you misunderstood Robin's comments? The rune mark used by WKC was similar to the "runes in diamond" mark seen on other officer and NCO blades. The mark was called a "Warrenzeichen" by the SS and indicated production according to standards established by the RFSS and Chief of the German Police. It did not signify the sword was sold only to an SS member. I had written for Tom Johnson at one time that I thought the Warrenzeichen was a means of limiting production of the SS-Police swords in order to secure a kick-back for the SS from approved manufacturers. Your police NCO sword came with an SS NCO knot and that suggests the SS membership. Just like putting an officers knot on an SS-Police officer's sword would suggest SS membership. It is the knot that suggests membership in the SS, not the runes on the sword.

I think they are just older reservists being trained for duty by an NCO. They are German police, not Hilfspolizei from the east. They wear the police insignia on the overseas cap as well as the sleeves. The collar insignia and dark uniforms might be older Prussian re-used material. Notice they are using Kar 98a rifles.

I think you are right on Chris. Notice the difference between the bag in Francois's photo and the wooden box used in the Die Wochephoto. That kit included snow shoes and such for winter operations. I will look for that article that I have somewhere.

Return of Germany's colonies was in Hitler's plans. And a police force would be necessary to administer them. Himmler ordered the schools opened, at Oranienburg for the ORPO and Charlottenburg for the SIPO. The daggers were identical to standard issue PAI weapons except for the signature of General Maraffa, the commander of the PAI. There were special instances of the daggers being given for ceremonial occasions, usually with ivory handles and fancier scabbards to the likes of v. Epp, Heydrich and Zindel.I wrote a very nice documented article on this dagger with many photos a few years ago in Roger Bender's magazine "The Military Advisor". Here is a rather severely cropped class photo of one of the SIPO classes with their daggers.

This is an unusual presentation dagger awarded to select members of the Ordnungspolizei and Sicherheitspolizei who had graduated from the Colonial police school in Oranienberg and the finishing course at the Italian Colonial Police (PAI) School in Tivoli. The daggers were of Pugnali design used by PAI forces in their colonies and embellished with the signature of PAI General Maraffa. Approximately 400 officers and some enlisted men were allowed to take the finishing course in Italy from 1940 through 1942.

Are there any machetes known to have a LW acceptance stamp? The machete in the Die Woche photo spread did not have a frog on the scabbard. Or perhaps the LW purchased on the commercial market for the emergency kits and didn't bother procurement/acceptance? But the Survival drillings are LW accepted. I imagine the police accepted machetes were for the survival kits of their air crews.

Dommage. The one machete had rosewood grips? Not serrated?

Dommage. The one machete had rosewood grips? Not serrated?

Here is a group shop of my three machetes out of scabbards. The two brass are identical and bear the acceptance marked Eagle/B. I believe these are very scarce pieces that because of size, looks and use are not considered as attractive or collectible as daggers or swords.

Here is a photo of the logo of my sawtooth variation. The steel handle variations are not common either. The article I cited above showed a steel handle machete in the canvas frog that was credited to the collection of Patrick Caldwell. Norwest78, do you know if perhaps that was the source of your example? Is it marked with a LW acceptance stamp? Francois, do your brass examples bear any acceptance markings for the LW? My steel version is unmarked, so it was used for commercial purposes or......?

Francois, perhaps it would be good to provide the source of the information and photo from the "Die Woche" photo you provided above? Ltc. Thomas Johnson published it in his book Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich Volume III, page 103-104. Notice the Alcoso trademark variations. Can the manufacture be dated from the use of AWS or ACS? Here is another variation of the steel handle model shown by norwest78 in this thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24518&hl=machete Mine is has a very worn steel handle but the blade has a saw tooth back like the butcher bayonets of WWI. The frog is leather and appears to be Dutch from markings on the reverse.

Book:Die Generale d. W-SS u.d.Polizei I would recommend this series to anyone interested in serious information about the generals of the Waffen SS and the German Police. Volume 3 has been released covering named generals La-Pl. The series Deutschlands Generale und Admirale Teil V is published by Biblio-Verlag * Bissendorf. Each volume includes a complete biography of these generals and most include photographs, and also feature corrections and updates of prior volumes. The German language volumes have high production values.

Rob, I am not disagreeing with Ben's premise. I only asked if any '44 dated tabs have been seen. I haven't seen any. But I have seen unmarked ones on late war cast zinc police buckles. With the scarcity of '43 and absence of later dates, it certainly seems logical that the police stopped using dated tabs in '43/'43. I still believe the off-set digits is best explained by an advancing dater on the logo machine. Stamping by hand would be archaic. What about buckles from the other services?

Ben, I must admit that although collecting police material for many years, I have never concentrated on the specifics of buckle tabs and dates. I can see the difference in location of the digits as you mention. I would think the stamp used by these companies would have had a dating mechanism with adjustable digits to move on for a new year. This might explain the digits out of sync, rather than explaining it by your suggestion that would be a logistics nightmare if done manually. I would think all this was done by machine. I can see the problem with leather tabs and the leather shortage that Germany was experiencing. I don't recall any 1944 or later dated tabs. Do you have or have you seen examples? Were tabs used on the sheet metal formed buckles?

Ben, I will try here instead of sending it to you.

Ben, I'm sorry, but trying to make a picture at 65k is very tiresome. I can't reduce my photo for uploading here. If you want to PM me with your email, I will send you one.

Here is a shot of the tab. Sorry, my batteries were failing and I had to shoot quickly.......and out of focus.

Ben, a very nice buckle. Looks to be the mate of mine. But it was also used by the Verkehrspolizei (Traffic Police) and the color of their leather equipment was brown. So, possibly yours like mine was issued to a Traffic cop and got attached to a KM belt by someone thinking of the gold=KM connection? On the other hand, it might have been issued to a water police NCO who was transfered in from the KM and brought his belt with him. I have another steel CTD buckle like these, but it has no tab. Another I have is aluminum and dated 1940. It has a brown tab.