Les

I've heard similar things about K?rassiers favoring certain types of EK1's (for example, the ones with two or four small screw backs on the reverse side) that were or could be worn on their breast plates. Call me a sceptic about the stories being real. Les

The "drawing" on the reverse is of a hand holding a pen. More than that....dunno kimosabi. Les

"Gallipoli". That raises yet another problem to doing research: military bases and on-going national security zones. Some of the areas that were sites of intensive military ops during the war were, and still are, military bases and national security zones that aren't open to the public and may not even be available to scholars with credentials. Much of the peninsula south of Istanbul is a Turkish military zone. Much but not all of the battlefield is open to the public. If you want access, you'll be required to undergo security checks. Eastern Europe? Back in the bad old days when the Soviet Union was around, free and ready access could be difficult if not impossible for outsiders. Even Russians were required to have internal passports. Similarly, research in the former eastern block prior to 1990 wasn't a piece of cake. In a few days, the Olympics in China will be starting. The yachting competitions will be taking place in the harbor at Tsingtao, where the Imperial German Navy established a base with dry docks, and site of a seige by the Japanese against the German forces there in 1915. The harbor, base and facilities are now used by the Chinese Navy, and much of the area is strictly off limits. The east isn't the only area with off limits security zones. They are present in the middle east, but also parts of western Europe. The French army today still has military areas near Verdun, that are not exactly free and open access zones. Some of that is due to the need for training zones with weapons, etc. Les

On this subject, there's usually more people who want to read than there who have more than a passing familiarity with the subject. (I'll put myself in the latter group.) A couple of long winded observations on the matter of the war in the east. First of all, there's a strong tendancy to see things from the perspective of "Germans" versus Russians. Some attention is paid to the Austro-Hungarian war effort with a tendancy to denigrate the Austro-Hungarian contribution. (The title "Chained to a Corpse" is less than flattering.) The Austro-Hungarian Army and Empire were multi-national and multi-lingual instutions. Although the Empire was a "dual" one, officially there were -NINE- languages that could be, and were used in official communications. The Army was also split into two seperate "national" units, one under the Austrians and the other under the Hungarians. Prior to the war, Russian intellegence operations against the Empire culminated in their gaining a high level operative on the Austrian General Staff who sold the Russians -all- of the Austrian war plans, along with whatever information the Austrians were privy to about German war plans and mobilization schedules. When the infamous Colonel Redl was exposed, tried and convicted of treason in 1912, there was -NO- mention of the compromised war plans to the Germans. Arguably, if the Germans had learned their war plans were compromised, rather than scrap the Schieffen plan, some might have argued for immediately starting a pre-emptive war against the Russians before the Russians were able to alter their own plans and make the Schlieffen Plan "out of date." When war began in 1914, the Austrians went into it without having told the Germans anything. The Russians as it turned out botched their invasion of East Prussia. With the Russian invasion of Galicia in 1915, the Austrians never saw it coming. They lost almost one-quarter of their army, and over half of the railway rolling stock they had. The Russians destroyed the Austrian rail-lines (different gauge from their own). The end result was that through several bad mistakes, the Austrians almost lost the war as early as 1915. The fact that they actually managed to fight on, especially after the Italians switched sides (add one more language to the list of those needed to study the war outside of western Europe!) is one of dogged determination to perserve. Once you look at the Austrian war effort in more than passing, it's amazing they not only managed to last long past 1915, but until November 4th, 1918 a week before the Germans threw in the provernial towel. If you really want to dig into the war in the east, German and Russian will get you started. German sources will tend to see matters from the German point of view. The Austro-Hungarian perspective has never been adqeuately looked at for reasons that have to do with the fact that the Empire collapsed and after the war was carved into several new nations that had no interest in looking back at the past. The Austrians used a regimental depot system which was geographically (and often ethnically) centered. After the war ended, regiments disbanded and documents never made it back to Vienna or Buda-Pesht. For anyone that wants to look into the eastern war with more than a superficial look, the archival sitation is one problem. Then there's the matter of needing a reading ability in not only German, and Russian for starters, but also Ukranian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Magyar, Serbo-Croat, and Romanian, Bulgarian, and to a lesser extent perhaps Finnish, Latvian, and if you add the Italian Front....Italian. Les

Hans Georg Horn, circa 1940. The original photo was given to the late N. O'Connor by Horn's widow. Sorry about the lack of quality in the photo...but that ought to help keep it from being "borrowed." Les

Some time ago I recall reading a study of gas warfare and its effects. The study mentioned that unlike bullets and artillery which can kill immediately, gas takes a bit longer. Unless someone doesn't have a mask, they inhale enough to afffect their breathing and can often head to the rear and reach a treatment station. The study then looked at the statistics of various wounds treated, and found that deaths due to gas were relatively low. Despite all the hype, instead of killing people, gas tended to S-L-O-W things down considerably. Putting a mask on can be done in less than 30 seconds. Once you put a mask on, the situation drastically changes. You can't see much except directly in front of you, and not all that far. The lenses will get fogged up and further cut down on how well/badly you can see. Gas combined with smoke shells and artillery rounds falling on a position, allow the side using it, to get close to the enemy front lines hopefully with fewer casualties to their own side. That was the theory from the introduction of chlorine gas in 1915, and all the way through Verdun and into 1917. In 1917, newer gases started appearing and that altered the way gas warfare was used. That year, the Germans began using a combination of different gases all at the same time. One gas was designed especially to pass through the filter and caused violent sneezing. That in turn would make breezing very hard and the person would be tempted to take the mask off to get a quick breath. That's where the other gases came in, and would then -really- put it to you. Mustad gas, a contact agent that blistered exposed skin and which could penetrate light clothing, was not intended to kill people directly. The purpose of mustard was to saturate an area with a compound that would force the enemy out of the spot, and which could then be bypassed by your own troops without having to worry about your flanks or rear. Mustards rear use was to take an area out of play for a short while, and to gain a tactical advantage by neutralizing enemy positions that might not be possible to take without heavy losses, etc. So, were there actual casualties or deaths from gas at Verdun? I'd say yes, but the actual numbers are probably not all that high. Years after the war however, men still continued to suffer from the effects of weakened or damaged lungs, and that in turn often led to early deaths after the war and were not directly chalked up to battlefield losses. Les

Rick, THANK YOU ! That made my day. Prior to now I was using a printed and very detailed modern Berlin street map (then shifted to Google earth), and an old Imperial map, and had to compare the two to tie the old/new together for addresses. Les

Looking at the states that handed him something or other, his awards alone suggest he served primarily in Flanders/northern France. That said, he seems to have been overlooked, or snubbed/ignored by the Bavarians. Les

Five days left, 20 bids tendered, and the amount has reached $2414. Whether the people iseriously nterested in owning this bar will wait until the last few minutes to snipe it, or keep nibbling away and driving the price up remains to be seen. This auction has a "protected" status preventing you and everyone but the seller from seeing who is bidding. This -always- makes me wonder whether the seller is hiding something, or really "protecting" the bidders.......from knowing if he has a shill bidder driving the price up. Whether it's justifiable or not, that always puts a red flag in the air as far as I'm concenred. Combine that with his ambiguous return policy, that's another red flag to be way about. Then there's the quality (or lack) of the photos, that don't showly clearly how the bar was constructed with tie downs, stitching on the bar, etc, etc. It might be good, but I'd like to see it in person rather than rely on photos alone. Les

As of this posting, $1700 with five days and several hours to go. Rickies gnomes may be rooting around for one name. The munchkins came up another name regarding the person selling the item. The sellers' name (ran a simple google search on his email address listed on the ebay auction site itself so there's no breach of privacy) came up as a John O. Hopkins, in Oklahoma City. Les

We're all custodians that have something which most likely will "outlive" us. Whatever you do to the bar, someone else will eventually own it. When the item passes hands a time or two, whatever -you've- done get's blended with the past. Even if a restoration is "perfect" to the eye, the piece has still been altered from the way the recipient or first owner had it. How do you prevent future owners from either thinking they've got a group that's never been tinkered with, or...restored. Think long and hard, and do what you feel is right for the piece, and for history. As for what I'd do, is not dump it on someone else and keep it as a reminder. I'd leave it the way it is and let it be a reminder. An aside here... I have a small grouping of an officer that fought in WWI, and served again in WWII. On May 8, 1945, he and hundreds of thousands of other German soldiers were surrendering to the Allied armies. He unfortunately had to surrender to the Russians. He had his medals and other items with him, and to save on space, cut the medals off the bar so they could be stuffed in his pocket. An American officer on liason duty with the Russians (making the story short) relieved him of items before the Russians marched him off. The American brought the items home and kept them. I got the items from his estate and the ribbons still show cut marks on the end ones, while the others appera to have been pulled off once the bar was coming apart. The group is an important one, and I've thought about having it all restored. The problem is, restoring the bar also alters part of the history of the grouping. My decision is to leave it exactly the way it came to me, because the cut ribbons and the others without the cut lines help tell a story that some might not realize happened if the bar was put back together with replacement ribbons for the ones that were cut. Whatever you do, be able to justify your actions to the gods of collecting. (There's probably a Saint Ricky type at the gate with a Ranglisten....to bar your entrance if you've done wrong). Les

Major Graf Siegfried von Wicken-Eulenburg, last commander of the 1st Garde Rgt. z. Fuss. PlM (1917) and Oaks (1918) during his postwar Freikorps days.... Les

He was one of a total of eight flying observers to be given this award. One set of rolls indicates his award was approved but not awarded before his death. Obviously he didn't wear it in life, and any photos of him wearing it were redone after his death. Les

Glenn, So far "S" didn't show up on the Grubstreet Jasta pilot's roster. I didn't expect he would. The Jasta pilot listings are typically for fighter pilots, and the guys who flew bombers, observation planes and the like aren't included as part of those listings. The Fliegerabteilung "A"(rtillerie) pilots can be sometimes found if you have access to unit diaries and/or histories. FA(a) 217 is given a very brief sketch here: http://www.frontflieger.de/2-faa217.html These names are provided: Fritz Kaplick,, Siegfried Kroepel, Paul Freiherr von Pechmann (+ 1955), Paul Rieper. Pechmann and Rieper were both aviation OBSERVERS awarded the Pour le Merite. By the way, now go back and look at "S's" papers and enshrined in his demobilization notation is a period signature by Paul Freiherr von Pechmann who it would seem was acting C.O. at the end of the war, and it would have been his responsibility to sign S's release from service papers. There were only eight observers and one ballon pilot that received the PlM during the war, and this document has one of those fellows signature on it. I can't say for certain, however the chances there is a unit history for FA(a) 217 is very high...given that the unit had two observers who were awarded the PlM. The unit history would list all pilots, observers, etc and lots of other details. Karl Heinrich was in a good unit, and his grouping seems to be getting better by the moment with a little checking on some of the background information. I'll see if I can turn up more for you. This may take -awhile- for me to make a few enquiries. Not bad for a first venture into WWI aviation collectables. Les

Look at the reverse side. The letters on top (KRIEGS) and the lower ones (VERDIENST) are not parallel to each other. That's not a good thing to see. Les

Glenn, The set seems to be a good and honest grouping. I don't see anything to be worried about. It all looks solid. There are dealers who wouldn't hesitate to marry decorations and other items to the grouping, and with none there, that hasn't been done. Everything there has his name on it, with the appropriate formation stamps, etc. If you can check with someone who has a WWII Luftwaffe Ranglisten, they could tell you if he was on active or reserve duty during the early part of the war. The "Segel" document in the group could be a between the wars document (the NSFKK was big on glider training), or duty as a glider instructor during the first few years of the war. If you can wait a day or two, I'll check the Grub Street series of Jasta and other pilot's to see if he's in there. I'll also check some of the other sources I have and get back to you. Les

These two documents from WWI and three others from the post-WWI era? "1) a 3-3/8 x 5-1/2 inch 20 page Milit?rpa? or service record issued to Karl.......S..... by the 4th Badische Feldartillerie Regiment 66 on 1 June 1917. Also included as a separate item in this pass are S.... demobilization certificate from Fliegerhorst Graudenz as well as two separate service records from the Royal Prussian Flying Squadron 217. 2) a 4-1/8 x 6-1/8 inch 48 page Flugbuch or log book issued to Karl........S... by Fliegerschule Schneidem?hl on 20 March 1918. " Observation units fell into two basic categories. One relied on external protection and support from other flying units. The other had pilots within the unit that flew alongside the observation aircraft. From the documents, it appears the grouping you're interested in, falls into the second category. He flew an Albatross single seater (looks like a D5a) from the photo, and the small script that I can see and read. His EKII was most likely awarded for taking part in flight operations at a late stage of the war. If he actually scored a victory in combat, he'd have been awarded an EKI, not an EKII. Consider his award a recognition by his superiors that he flew in a combat zone, and survived. Nice set of documents. Les

Rick, was Ernie carrying that with him when he was jailed and executed? I don't see a bullet-hole and blood stains on it.... Q: Do you know how you can tell when Greenfield (aka the Rippmeister) is lying? A: His lips are moving and/or he's written something down. Les

Not all units were involved in each and every battle. It might be possible to look up the units that took part in the specific battles or action on the bar, eliminate units that were at each and every one of the ones on the bar. From that it might be possible to narrow down the list of officers. He might not have fought in the 1864 Danish or 1866 Austrian battles with the Prussians. In 1870/71 he'd have been on the "Prussian" side. That might explain the absence of "earlier" Prussian awards. By the way....that's one very nice bar. Congratulieren! Les

Chris, I knew a machinist/"blacksmith" that made an exact copy from an original baseplate. Unfortunately, the fellow died two years ago. If memory serves me correctly, he borrowed the original item from Rick Keller of Great War Militaria located in Chambersburg, PA. Keller has sold off most of his private museum located on the upper floor of his store. The baseplate may already be gone. Even if it is, Rick knows enough people that he might be able to help you locate one in the US, Canada, or Europe. At one time, he even had a complete, and working French WWI Brandt pneumatic mortar.....among many other things. If you google his or the store name, that will give you his contact information including an email address. Hope this can help you. Les

M might stand for something like a "Marine" or even "Mattrosen" as in Marine (or Mattrosen) Landwehr Verein. The Imperial navy was recruited from all over the Reich. Navy units did not wear a state cockade, only the single national one. The Flandern medal next to it hints at a possible connection also. There were two Mattrosen land-based divisions that fought in the Ypres area. Up along the coast near Zeebrugge and Ostende were bases for air and naval units. Les

Now, the reverse side. They aren't exactly identical from this side. The loops are clipped on the edges, and the solder work isn't all that great. S&L crosses show a range of strike quality that may be the result of die wear from the sheer quantity of these post war copies made. Whether oaks were made for the series, or borrowed from some other medal copies isn't all that certain. The ones I have appear to be cast, and may have been copied directly from some other postwar copies.

Here's my S&L oaks compared to the one's Mike posted at the beginning of the thread. Fronts first. They look almost identical. Les

These were on a a bronze gilt PlM made between the wars, however, the Eichenlaube tested out at 18 karat gold. Andreas has seen these before.... I'll put the S&L ones when I get time to photograph them this holiday weekend. Les

Mike, If you can wait a couple of days, I'll root out and send you a photo of S&L oaks the firm made for their post WWII PlMs. The S&L ones are smaller than originals, are gilded bronze, and have the same type of back that's dished out. The originals show stamping on both sides, in addition to other details. Period "oaks" as already mentioned, were the same on the Rot Adler, etc. Les