Dave Danner

Apparently, for this guy, an Iron Cross 2nd Class and a Württemberg Silver Military Merit Medal came relatively quickly, but it took three years and eight nominations to get a Bavarian decoration, in this case a Military Merit Cross 2nd Class with Crown and Swords on the ribbon for war merit. First proposed on 30 December 1914, finally awarded on 16 January 1918.

I just came across another possible scenario which might broaden the search. While updating and editing the recipients of the Princely Schwarzburg Honor Cross, I came across a Bavarian officer, Valentin Geck, who received the SEK3X as an Olt.d.R. in the Bavarian 21. Inf.-Regt. The rolls from Schwarzburg-Sondershausen generally only give a name and unit, and only sometimes give a residence, usually when the recipient is not from a Thuringian unit. In Olt. Geck's case, his residence was listed as Arnstadt, the largest city in the principality. Going to the Bavarian Kriegsranglisten, I found Geck's record, which show that he was born in Zautendorf, Fürth, Bayern (Zautendorf is now a part of Cadolzburg, a suburb of Fürth). His Arnstadt connection? His civilian job is listed as Gymnasialoberlehrer in Arnstadt. Why is this relevant? He was an officer in 21.bay.IR, whose Inhaber was the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. As a Bavarian officer, he received the BMV4X. As an officer in 21.bay.IR, he received the Mecklenburg-Schwerin MVK 2nd Class. And because of his Arnstadt connection, he received the SEK3X. The EK2 and the 1905 Bavarian Army Jubilee Medal round out his awards. So like our elusive Bavarian-Baden-Meiningen enlisted man, he got one award due to the Army he was in, one due to the regiment, and one due to his residence. But he wasn't born in Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, he just worked there. Having gone through all the Meiningen-born soldiers and not finding a match, now I have to think maybe Rick's guy wasn't born in Meiningen, but moved there at some point.

Finally, another Kriegsrangliste entry, showing the RAO4, LD1, PRLM and the Oldenburg order, only this time with swords. As you can see, the wartime BMV4X and EK2 aren't there, as this rank list entry was created before those awards were made. The awards are to Rittmeister der Reserve Robert Ludwig von Ranke of the 2. Schw. Reiter Regiment. I called this a "mini-mystery" because I don't think there's any doubt that his Oldenburg House Order was without swords. Among other things, he doesn't have the Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross. He also has no Oldenburg connection. The von Rankes to which he belonged were Bavarians and he only became "von Ranke" in 1893 when his father's personal nobility was made hereditary. And Rittm. von Ranke served with Bavarian units during the war. The mini-mystery is that his 1914 ranklist doesn't show the OV3b, and Ferry W. von Péter's list of non-Bavarian awards to Bavarians in World War I doesn't list it. My guess is that it was gazetted in 1914 after the ranklist was published, but not included in the Bavarian volume because v. Péter missed it. This may be because v. Péter's book was on awards to Bavarian military personnel, and Robert von Ranke probably received the award right around the time the war broke out for his civilian job. Until August 1914, he was a German consul and deputy general consul in London, and had to leave England pretty quickly. The second part of the mini-mystery is why someone added swords at some point and no one caught or corrected the error. Makes me wonder whether there are other similar errors. Also one bit of trivia: through his sister's marriage to an Englishman, Robert von Ranke is the uncle of Robert von Ranke Graves, also known as just Robert Graves, the author of I, Claudius. Regards, Dave

Another Kriegsrangliste entry to the same person, only whoever wrote it made the same mistake as in the previous record and called the OV3bX both a "Knight 2nd Class" and a "4th Class", but added to the mistake by splitting the award into two sections.

While going through various Bavarian records, I came across this entry: The awards are: a) Bavarian Landwehr DA I & II Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Swords (BMV4X) b) Non-Bavarian Prussian Red Eagle Order IV. Class Knight II. Class of the Oldenburg House and Merit Order with Swords [with an erroneous IV. Class in there] Iron Cross II. Class

Yep, Jordan Long Service Medal, established in 1948.

A very logical analysis, consistent with what we know is typical for German officers when trying to interpret medal or ribbon bar combinations. And that's why this was a bit of a trick. As Christophe notes, the Princely Schwarzburg Honor Cross 2nd Class with Swords is a very high grade. It is also quite rare. There were only 81 awards during World War I. And Schwarzburg, unlike many other German states, generally required a connection to the principalities. There weren't the courtesy awards to fellow royals or awards to popular leaders like Hindenburg and Ludendorff or famous names like the Red Baron. You generally had to be a Schwarzburg native, or serve in or have command over Schwarzburg units. As I mentioned, there were 81 awards of the SEK2X. All of them were to Oberstleutnants, Majors or Oberstabsarzts. All of them, that is, except one - Gustav Sommerfeld. When I first transcribed the SEK2X rolls, I misread this guy as an Oberstleutnant, who received the swords on 27 May 1916 to his prewar SEK2. But when I got to the peacetime awards, I saw an error. He wasn't an Oberstleutnant, but an Oberleutnant. And why would a mere Oberleutnant receive an award for Oberstleutnants and Majors? Because of that peacetime award. He got the SEK2 on 17 March 1914. So when it came time for a wartime award, he got swords to his prewar award rather than a lower SEK3X appropriate to his military rank of Oberleutnant der Landwehr. And why did a mere Oberleutnant receive a peacetime SEK2 in the first place? Because while to us military types, he was just another junior officer, to the civilians in the court in Sondershausen he was a Kgl. Preußischer Hofrat. Both the Prussian Crown Order 4th Class and the SEK2 were awarded because he was a court official in the Royal Playhouse (Kgl. Schauspiele) in Wiesbaden. Oddly, I don't think he actually has a Schwarzburg connection, which also makes the award unusual. I don't think he was from the principalities, and he was a Garde-Landwehr officer. Apparently, the Schwarzburg royal family must have liked going to plays when visiting the Kaiser's summer palaces in Wiesbaden. When war came, Hofrat Sommerfeld put on his uniform and left the world of actors and stagehands. He was a Leutnant des 1. Aufgebots des 1. Garde-Landwehr-Regiments in 1914, and went to war with the 1. Garde-Ersatz-Regiment. He was promoted to Oberleutnant on 22 December 1914. He then went on to Garde-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 6, where he received the SEK2X, and was promoted to Hauptmann der Landwehr on 21 June 1916. His HOH3X came in June 1917. An interesting example of how sometimes the usual rules don't apply. And why more and more information is better, especially from unusual sources. The 1918 edition of the Handbuch über den preußischen Hof und Staat, which I found in the New York Public Library and got for Paul to scan, confirmed that Hofrat Sommerfeld was the HOH3X recipient. It and the 1918 Handbuch für das deutsche Reich are a wealth of information on awards to government officials, many of whom were also in the reserves and Landwehr. Still, even these have errors and have to be checked with other sources (Hofrat Sommerfeld's entry has his EK1 and HOH3X, but doesn't show the swords to his SEK2). I hope to have the Schwarzburg rolls finished soon. There is some missing information and I have to cross-check some names. I also have some other projects, mainly on awards from other sources. Best regards, Dave

I'm not sure how interesting this subject is, but I will give it another try. Here is another one I came across while compiling the Schwarzburg awards. If you saw a medal bar with this combination of awards, what would you guess about the owner?

Well, I have now gone through the Kriegsrangliste and Kriegsstammrolle entries of every Bavarian soldier born in Sachsen-Meiningen, and unfortunately I still can't find a match. There were about 2800 records, but since many soldiers have multiple entries as they changed units, I can't say what the actual number of Meiningers in Bavarian service was. It is also possible I missed some records, since there are quite a lot of misspellings of names and birthplaces in Ancestry.com's database. There were even a lot of non-Meiningers: the Bezirkamt Memmingen in Bavarian Swabia was frequently misspelled as Meiningen. However, most soldiers did have more than one record. For example, one Kriegsstammrolle entry from the regimental Ersatz-Abteilung and one or more from various companies within a regiment. Sometimes a Lazarett unit record if they were off the line for a while. So even if one record on a particular soldier didn't show up because they misspelled Meiningen, it is likely that another record got it spelled right. So the odds are I saw a record for every Meininger. What are the odds that a Baden award might have been processed after the war and not shown up in a Kriegsstammrolle? Maybe there's still hope of confirming one of Rick's candidates or another elusive Meininger. Similarly, I found no matches among the officers for my elusive ribbon and medal bar. I only found one viable candidate with the EK2, BMV4X, 1905 Jubilee Medal and SMK combination, with the SMK awarded before the BMV4X (the ribbon bar has just the EK2, SMK and Bavarian Army Jubilee), but none of the records show the Austrian and Bulgarian decorations (although the service record does show that he was in that theater). So what are the odds that the Austrian and Bulgarian awards might have come too late to be in a Kriegsrangliste? ------- Though I couldn't find matches for our mystery men, I can make some observations about awards to natives of Meiningen in general. For officers: most had the Prussian Iron Cross, Bavarian Military Merit Order and the Sachsen-Meiningen Honor Cross for Merit in War. Only a few missed out on completing the trio, and many had other awards, especially among the more highly decorated staff officers. Quite a few were medical officers. For NCOs and enlisted men: First, probably more than a quarter had no war decorations. Some of them did have other things like a Dienstauszeichnung. Another quarter or so have only a single state's war decoration, either a Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class, a Bavarian Military Merit Cross with Swords, or a Sachsen-Meiningen Honor Medal for Merit in War. Again, some of them did have other awards like the Dienstauszeichnung, the Bavarian Army Jubilee Medal (1905) or Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille (1911). Another quarter or so have war decorations from two states, usually an EK2 and Bavarian MVK or an EK2 and SMM, occasionally an MVK and SMM but no EK2 (far less common). The more well decorated might also have the Iron Cross 1st Class and/or a second Bavarian award such as a higher grade of the MVK or a Silver Bravery Medal Less than a quarter have awards from all three states (again plus perhaps other Bavarian awards or an EK1) One Meininger didn't have the SMM but did have the Merit Medal with Swords of the Saxe-Ernestine House Order. I forgot to write it down but I think he was a Lazarett-Inspektor-Stellvertreter at the Reserve-Lazarett Coburg (also, while the Res.-Laz. Coburg's records are there because it came under a Bavarian inspectorate, it was a Prussian formation, and most of the doctors and staff were non-Bavarians). I only found two men who managed to get awards from four states: Prussia, Bavaria, their native Sachsen-Meinigen and a fourth. Unfortunately, as I said above, not Baden. In both cases it was foreign: Austria-Hungary. Franz Hey, a Vizefeldw. u. Offz.-Stellv. born 25 Dec. 1892 in the city of Meiningen, who served from 1912 to 1918 with various flying units, received the pilot's badge, the EK1 & EK2, the SMM, a Bavarian MVK with Swords (the Kriegsstammrolle doesn't say what grade, but given his rank either a 2nd Class or 2nd Class with Crown), and the Austro-Hungarian Silver Merit Cross on the ribbon of the Bravery Medal. Adolf Krieg, born 17 Sept. 1886 in Henneberg, Landkreis Meiningen, entered service in 1907 and became a Kapitulant in 1909. He was a Sergeant when the war broke out, became a Vizefeldwebel on 25 April 1915, and an Offz.-Stellv. on 14 June 1915. In the war, he served in the 1. Ers.-MG-Kp./Inf.-Leib-Regt., 3. Ers.-MG-Kp./Inf.-Leib-Regt., Geb.-MG-Abt. 207, 1. Bay. IR, and 26. Bay. IR. He was taken prisoner in Belgium on 28 Sept. 1918. he recieved the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd Class, the Bavarian MVK 2nd Class with Crown and Swords, the SMM, the Austro-Hungarian Bronze Bravery Medal, the silver Wound Badge, the Bavarian Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille, the Bavarian DA 3rd Class. Interestingly, one of his Stammrolle entries also lists the June 1915 award of the "Österr. Edelw.". At the time he was serving in Geb.-MG-Abt. 207. Best regards, Dave

Generalmajor Günther Weichardt also had the Austrian Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration and Wehrmacht DA Generalleutnant Carl Becker also had the Austrian Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration and Wehrmacht DA Generalmajor Wilhelm Conze also had the Austrian Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration and Wehrmacht DA LGIR 115 was a Hesse regiment, so an HT is likely for Arnold. 1926 Ranklist shows Hptm. Ruhstrat also had the Lippe KVK [Hptm. 1.4.26 (14)] Emil Ahlhorn had several other decorations Of the rest, known HOH3X recipients are: Lt.d.R. Schumann, IR 91 Lt.d.R. Gabriel, IR 91 Lt.d.R. Peltner, IR 91 Lt.d.R. Smits, IR 161 Lt. von Essen, FAR 62 HOH3X recipients whose units aren't clear, but who have the same names as officers on your list, so they are possibilities: Lt.d.R. Eckert Lt.d.R. Hess Olt.d.R. Hellmuth Lt.d.R. Carstens Lt.d.R. Röver Lt.d.R. Murken Lt.d.R. Gesell Lt.d.R. Harms Lt.d.R. Wegmann

Lt.d.R. Max Büschel is out. He was a native of Eisenach and received several Saxe-Weimar decorations (Allg. Ehrenzeichen in Silber mit Schwerterspange, Wilhelm Ernst-Kriegskreuz, and possibly the White Falcon though those rolls are incomplete). Also, he was killed in action on 30 September 1918.

Attached is the orders section for Friedrich Freiherr von Waldenfels (4.5.1897-9.8.1924), who served in the Bavarian Army during the war, then in Ukraine and the Baltics from 1918-1920, and then in the Reichswehr. Notice the bottom three, with the Baltenkreuz and the two before and after it. The first looks like "Orden der. H. Anna m. Schleife u. Schw." A post-Tsarist award by the nominal Russian leadership of the German/Russian forces fighting the Bolsheviks in the Baltic region? The last, the "Schw. Armeekreuz", is I assume the Schwarzes Armeekreuz, or Black Army Cross, of the the Freiwillige Deutsch-Russische Westarmee and the Iron Division.

Our mysteriously well-decorated Bavarian it Olt.d.R.a.D. Max Siegert. Here is his 1914 ranklist entry: As you may notice, a few of the decorations from the ribbon bar are not shown here (Princely Hohenzollern House Order, Saxon Albrechts-Orden, Schaumburg-Lippe House Order). They do appear, however, in Herr Siegert's other entry, from the 1914 Bavarian Court and State Handbook: Not in the Kriegsministerium, although a good guess, but a few blocks over at the Hauptbahnhof. I came across Herr Siegert while compiling the non-swords awards of the Princely Schwarzburg Honor Cross. I find him interesting because he illustrated two points. First, as I noted above, sometimes a reserve military man's civilian job matters . When you see a ribbon or medal bar with an unusual combination, sometimes the military ranklists aren't helpful in finding the holder, or in explaining why he got what he got. Second, sometimes unusual combinations of awards are simply a matter of being in the right place at the right time. Apparently, whenever a royal visitor came to the Bavarian capital, Siegert was there to make sure their bags ended up in the right place. And they made sure to reward him.

You could narrow down the list of names, but I'm not sure how close to 1 you can get. Once the full MMV lists are published, that should allow cross-checking all the Mecklenburg-Schwerin/Baden combinations. The same can be done for the MStK2 when Mecklenburg-Strelitz is finished, but I think Meckl.-Strelitz and Baden is a less likely combination (Meckl.-Schwerin and Baden had a connection in Jag.-Btl. 14 and various Schweriners in the staff of XIV. Armeekorps). Finding the Austrian Military Merit Cross and a Tirolean connection will be more difficult, but will allow for further narrowing down the list. As a start, here are a few officers I know had the EK2/BZ3bX/MMV2 combination, and, as far as I know, no other German state awards: Bergengruen, ____ Hptm., Feldart.-Regt. 30 Bobsin, Otto, Lt.d.R., Mun.-Kol. u. Tr., XIV. R.K. Langen, ____ von, Olt., Adj. Trains, XIV. A.K. Reichert, ____, Lt.d.R., Res.-Jäg.-Btl. Nr. 14 Schroer, Heinrich, Olt., Mun.-Kol. u. Tr., XIV. R.K. Siegert, Alexander, Lt., Drag.-Regt. Nr. 22 Siegert, Ludwig, Lt., Drag.-Regt. Nr. 22

Does anyone have the list of the 59 Red Eagle 3rd Classes with Crown without Bow from Eric Ludvigsen's work?

Rommel is actually a good example. He received the Friedrichs-Orden, Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern, on 1 November 1914. On 8 April 1915, he received the Militär-Verdienstorden "an Stelle des ihm durch Allerhöchste Ordre vom 1. November 1914 verliehenen Ritterkreuzes zweiter Klasse des Friedrichs-Ordens mit Schwertern." So he had to turn in the lower award. Later in the war, after the rules were changed, he received the Friedrichs-Orden, Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse mit Schwertern. That one he got to keep.

We appear to have posted at the same time :beer:

The division is right too. According to this excerpt, they were under the Alpenkorps in November 1916:

Second half below. There are a surprisingly large number of Franz Xaver Wiesers, Xaver Franz Wiesers and just Franz Wiesers.

The regiment fits. From the RIR 18 Kriegstammrolle:

Ancestry.com says they are just adding the records as they get them, so probably the one to contact is the Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv, custodian of the Kriegsarchiv records. Tel. 089/28638-2596 Fax 089/28638-2954 E-Mail: poststelle@bayhsta.bayern.de

The Militär-Verdienstorden, Württemberg's highest military honor, similar to the Prussian Pour le Mérite, Bavaria's Militär-Max Joseph-Orden, Saxony's Militär-St. Heinrichs-Orden, and Baden's Militär-Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstorden. Since the same ribbon was used for the order and for the Militär-Verdienstmedaille, ribbon devices were authorized in November 1917. The green enameled wreath indicated the order, and a gilt wreath indicated the Goldene Militär-Verdienstmedaille. No wreath indicated the Silberne Militär-Verdienstmedaille. There were a little over 2,000 awards in World War I, so it wasn't as uncommon as the Max Joseph or Karl Friedrich. It was probably more comparable in that respect to the Saxon St. Heinrich. Also, until some time late in the war, if an officer previously received the Goldene Militär-Verdienstmedaille or the Friedrichs-Orden mit Schwertern, he would return the lower order for the MVO. Thus ribbon bars like yours where a prestigious decoration like the MVO is all alone with just an EK2 and FKE in a classic soldier's trio.

This:

The problem isn't whether a Hptm. Richter existed, it's that there are too many. The SA3aX was awarded on 19 June 1915. At that time, there were at least 20 Hptm. Richters in the Prussian Army. Of these, I can rule out ten for various reasons (we know what units they were in in 1915 or we know what awards they had, and no SA3aX). Of the remaining ten, a few are unlikely for various reasons (age, branch), but can't be completely ruled out. And there remains the possibility that there are others besides the 20 I counted. I already ruled out several others who were Hauptleute in 1914 because they were promoted to Major or retired by early 1915, but there may be a few I missed because they were Oberleutnants whose promotion date to Hauptmann I couldn't find. And there are also possibly some recalled Hauptleute a.D. who might have been too old to fly, but could have been staff officers in FFA 16. The ten: Hptm. Richter, FR 39, 1919 Maj.a.D. Hptm. Richter, FAR 70, 1919 Maj.a.D. Hptm.d.R. Richter, JägB 10 (BMV4X 5.11.14) Hptm.d.L.-Inf. I. Aufg. Richter, Ldw.Bez. Danzig, Inf., KO4, LD1 Hptm.d.L.-Inf. I. Aufg. Richter, Ldw.Bez. Hamburg II, LD1 Hptm.d.L.-Inf. I. Aufg. Richter, Ldw.Bez. Magdeburg, LD1 Hptm.d.L.-Inf. I. Aufg. Richter, Ldw.Bez. Wohlau, LD2 Hptm. Richter, IR 54 (1914 Olt. Hptm. 21.12.14; 1919 Maj.a.D.) Hptm. Richter, Pion.Btl. 8 (1914 Olt., Hptm. 5.9.14; gef. 20.9.16 als Hptm.i.G., XVIII.R.K.) Hptm.d.R. Richter, FAR 40 (1914 Olt.d.R., Hptm.d.R. 22.5.15) In addition, in 1914 there were Oberleutnants d.R. in FR 38 and FR 86 for whom I can't find a promotion date, but who might have been Hauptleute by June 1915. There were also at least seven Oberleutnants d.L. in 1914 for whom I can't find a promotion date to Hauptmann. Regards, Dave]

#15 and #16 are indeed the Belgian Order of Leopold II and the Luxembourg Order of Adolph of Nassau #17 could be the Dannebrog, but it isn't. It is the Order of Danilo from Montenegro #18, of course, as just another red ribbon, could be any number of decorations. In this case, it is the Order of Franz Josef of Austria-Hungary. The combination does exist, although a full ribbon bar like this would be unlikely for the reasons Lukasz suggests (too long and foreign awards would possibly be in order awarded rather than alphabetically, but I don't know the award dates for all of them). Regarding the St. Michael, remember that though an officer might get the order rather than the cross based on his rank, and might also get the MVO, a reserve or Landwehr officer might get the award based on his civilian job, not his military rank. In this case, it is the Merit Cross with the Crown, and had nothing to do with being an Oberleutnant der Landwehr.