Dave Danner

We appear to have posted at the same time :beer:

The division is right too. According to this excerpt, they were under the Alpenkorps in November 1916:

Second half below. There are a surprisingly large number of Franz Xaver Wiesers, Xaver Franz Wiesers and just Franz Wiesers.

The regiment fits. From the RIR 18 Kriegstammrolle:

Ancestry.com says they are just adding the records as they get them, so probably the one to contact is the Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv, custodian of the Kriegsarchiv records. Tel. 089/28638-2596 Fax 089/28638-2954 E-Mail: poststelle@bayhsta.bayern.de

The Militär-Verdienstorden, Württemberg's highest military honor, similar to the Prussian Pour le Mérite, Bavaria's Militär-Max Joseph-Orden, Saxony's Militär-St. Heinrichs-Orden, and Baden's Militär-Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstorden. Since the same ribbon was used for the order and for the Militär-Verdienstmedaille, ribbon devices were authorized in November 1917. The green enameled wreath indicated the order, and a gilt wreath indicated the Goldene Militär-Verdienstmedaille. No wreath indicated the Silberne Militär-Verdienstmedaille. There were a little over 2,000 awards in World War I, so it wasn't as uncommon as the Max Joseph or Karl Friedrich. It was probably more comparable in that respect to the Saxon St. Heinrich. Also, until some time late in the war, if an officer previously received the Goldene Militär-Verdienstmedaille or the Friedrichs-Orden mit Schwertern, he would return the lower order for the MVO. Thus ribbon bars like yours where a prestigious decoration like the MVO is all alone with just an EK2 and FKE in a classic soldier's trio.

This:

The problem isn't whether a Hptm. Richter existed, it's that there are too many. The SA3aX was awarded on 19 June 1915. At that time, there were at least 20 Hptm. Richters in the Prussian Army. Of these, I can rule out ten for various reasons (we know what units they were in in 1915 or we know what awards they had, and no SA3aX). Of the remaining ten, a few are unlikely for various reasons (age, branch), but can't be completely ruled out. And there remains the possibility that there are others besides the 20 I counted. I already ruled out several others who were Hauptleute in 1914 because they were promoted to Major or retired by early 1915, but there may be a few I missed because they were Oberleutnants whose promotion date to Hauptmann I couldn't find. And there are also possibly some recalled Hauptleute a.D. who might have been too old to fly, but could have been staff officers in FFA 16. The ten: Hptm. Richter, FR 39, 1919 Maj.a.D. Hptm. Richter, FAR 70, 1919 Maj.a.D. Hptm.d.R. Richter, JägB 10 (BMV4X 5.11.14) Hptm.d.L.-Inf. I. Aufg. Richter, Ldw.Bez. Danzig, Inf., KO4, LD1 Hptm.d.L.-Inf. I. Aufg. Richter, Ldw.Bez. Hamburg II, LD1 Hptm.d.L.-Inf. I. Aufg. Richter, Ldw.Bez. Magdeburg, LD1 Hptm.d.L.-Inf. I. Aufg. Richter, Ldw.Bez. Wohlau, LD2 Hptm. Richter, IR 54 (1914 Olt. Hptm. 21.12.14; 1919 Maj.a.D.) Hptm. Richter, Pion.Btl. 8 (1914 Olt., Hptm. 5.9.14; gef. 20.9.16 als Hptm.i.G., XVIII.R.K.) Hptm.d.R. Richter, FAR 40 (1914 Olt.d.R., Hptm.d.R. 22.5.15) In addition, in 1914 there were Oberleutnants d.R. in FR 38 and FR 86 for whom I can't find a promotion date, but who might have been Hauptleute by June 1915. There were also at least seven Oberleutnants d.L. in 1914 for whom I can't find a promotion date to Hauptmann. Regards, Dave]

#15 and #16 are indeed the Belgian Order of Leopold II and the Luxembourg Order of Adolph of Nassau #17 could be the Dannebrog, but it isn't. It is the Order of Danilo from Montenegro #18, of course, as just another red ribbon, could be any number of decorations. In this case, it is the Order of Franz Josef of Austria-Hungary. The combination does exist, although a full ribbon bar like this would be unlikely for the reasons Lukasz suggests (too long and foreign awards would possibly be in order awarded rather than alphabetically, but I don't know the award dates for all of them). Regarding the St. Michael, remember that though an officer might get the order rather than the cross based on his rank, and might also get the MVO, a reserve or Landwehr officer might get the award based on his civilian job, not his military rank. In this case, it is the Merit Cross with the Crown, and had nothing to do with being an Oberleutnant der Landwehr.

Completely unrelated to the Meiningen research, how about this combination? What would you read into this? As a start, after the first three Bavarian awards, the ribbons are in alphabetical order by German state, and then alphabetical order by foreign country.

It is the Wehrmacht DA4, awarded on 21 Dec. 1936. As to the Silesian Eagle, he got both classes. "Stufe", related to "step" in English, is another term used for "class" in various German decorations. The Bewährungsabziechen des V. Armeekorps is a Freikorps badge. It was a pinback badge in the form of a wreath surrounding a Roman numeral V.

Leopold Waldemar von Bredow was married twice. The marriage in Washington DC was to Frances Clara Newlands. She died on 22 August 1907 in Berlin. They had one daughter, Friederike Frances Adelheid, born on 2 November 1906. The second marriage was to Hannah Leopoldine Alice Gräfin von Bismarck-Schönhausen. The first wife wasn't a noblewomen, being American, but she was the daughter of a U.S. Senator, Francis Griffith Newlands, who served as U.S. Senator from Nevada from 1903 until his death in 1917. The problem with Bredow remains why, if it was his medal bar, he would wear only one of three foreign decorations. Italy could be explained by the war, but why neutral Sweden and not neutral Spain?

Sergeant Josef Schelshorn, from Thanning bei Wolfratshausen, to the north of Bad Tölz. Served mainly with the 1. Pion.-Ers.-Btl. and Pion.-Btl. 22 Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse - no date given Bay. MVK 3. Kl. mit der Krone und Schwertern - 25.4.18 Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz - 13.5.18 He was promoted to Sergeant on 20 March 1918, so maybe the photo dates from between then and the April 25 award of the BMV5cXKr.

Leopold Waldemar von Bredow also had the Knight's Cross of the Italian Order of the Crown and the Spanish Order of Military Merit 1st Class.

The Order of Oranje-Nassau had the white stripe, but the Order of the Golden Lion did not. It was yellow with the narrow blue edge stripe. However, almost every German recipient of that order appears to be royalty, with a first class award. If the separate ribbon bar Tim mentioned goes with it, the ribbon bar might be a pre-war KO4, Centenary, WF3b/WF3a, MG3. The the wartime medal bar added the EK2 and the mystery medal. I agree a Swedish Sword Order seems most likely, but I can't find a candidate either. I only can find one peacetime WF3/MG3 combo with a wartime WF3aX I can't rule out due to having other awards - Rittm. Kurt Freiherr von Senden-Bibran of KR 5. However, I can't find any evidence of a KO4 or the Swedish order. Recalled Maj.a.D. Hans Freiherr von Werthern had the prewar KO4/Centenary/WF3b/MG3 combo, as well as a wartime EK2 and WF3aX, but (1) no Sword Order and (2) he did have an Italian Order of the Crown (JK5), which should be there. I am left to conclude that the WF3aX doesn't belong. The EK2 might be the only wartime award.

I have now gone through the Kriegsrangliste entries of well over a thousand Meiningen-born Bavarian enlisted soldiers, and have found that: - about 1/4 have no decorations - another 1/4 or so have only a single decoration, either an EK2 or a Bavarian MVK or a SMM - another 1/4 or so have decorations from two states, usually an EK2 and MVK or an EK2 and SMM, occasionally an MVK and SMM - another 1/4 have all three: EK2, Bay. MVK, and SMM (plus perhaps other Bavarian awards or an EK1) - so far, only one has more than three states I still haven't found Rick's elusive Prussia/Bavaria/Baden/Meiningen combo. For that matter, I also haven't found my own elusive Prussia/Bavaria/Meiningen/Austria-Hungary/Bulgaria officer combo (though many other officers do have more combinations than the NCOs and enlisted men). The one I did come across is an aviator: Franz Hey, a Vizefeldw. u. Offz.-Stellv. who served from 1912 to 1918 with various flying units. He received the pilot's badge, EK1 & EK2, SMM, a Bavarian MVK (but it doesn't say what grade), and an unusual one, the Austro-Hungarian Silver Merit Cross on the ribbon of the Bravery Medal.

Officially, the MVM was supposed to be a lesser award: According to the 1915 regulations, "Die Fürstlich Lippische Militär-Verdienstmedaille mit Schwertern kann verliehen werden an solche Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften, die infolge einer leichten Verwundung oder einer im Feld entstandenen Krankheit dienstuntauglich geworden und nicht im Besitze des Eisernen Kreuzes oder dazu eingegeben sind." So it was apparently intended for soldiers wounded or rendered unfit for service due to illness in the field, who did not have the Iron Cross or weren't recommended for it. The Kriegsverdienstkreuz, by contrast, originally was supposed to require award of or recommendation for the Iron Cross, or other excellence in combat ("Für die Verleihung des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes ist Bedingung, daß der Vorzuschlagende das Eiserne Kreuz zweiter Klasse besitzt, von seinem Truppenteil hierzu eingegeben ist oder sich sonst besonders hervorgetan hat."), A March 1917 regulation said that if an MVM recipient later received the KVK, he was supposed to return the MVM ("Bei Verleihung des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes ist jede etwa vorher verliehene Militär-Verdienstmedaille an das Militärkabinett zurückzureichen."). However, there are numerous examples of this not occurring, so apparently this regulation wasn't followed in practice.

Another strange one: Lt. Herbert Koppenhagen received the Golden Bravery Medal on 9 December 1915, and the Iron Cross 2nd Class two weeks later, on 20 December. The actual acts for which he received the medals must have been earlier, because he is listed as receiving them as a Fähnrich in 23. bay. IR, but he was promoted to Leutnant on 25 October 1915 (his Patent was later, 22 March 1916). He gets the Iron Cross 1st Class on 28 March 1917 and the Black Wound Badge on 25 June 1918. So unlike your guy he does get another higher award in the EK1, but: (1) he's an officer, but no MVK (common for officer candidates though maybe the Golden Bravery Medal trumped that) and no MVO, despite being an infantry platoon leader at Verdun. (2) did I mention he was from Sachsen-Meiningen, born in Unterneubrunn and residing in Schleusingen, Kreis Hildburgshausen? No SMM or SMK either.

Rank is big factor, too. A large percentage of Silver Bravery Medal recipients were NCOs. Naturally, they would be more likely to have a DA. But they were also more likely to have an MVK, since the MVK wasn't just for acts of bravery but also military merit, and successful combat leadership was a big part of military merit. But a private could have a single spectacular act of bravery and get the Bravery Medal, and then otherwise fade back into obscurity as just another grunt. He's already got a medal more prestigious than the MVK anyway. What surprises me more than the lack of an MVK is that Pion. Stark served throughout almost the entire war and apparently never got promoted.

No need to dig further. Schießplatzmeister's #3 is correct. The point of the exercise was how similar an MMJO/MVO combination might be to a TM/MVK combination. The silver swords could be either for an MVO 4th Class or an MVK 2nd Class, and the MMJO and Bravery Medal ribbons were the same. And of course the SMK and SMM also used the same ribbon, so no help there. As for the other two Bavarian ribbons, a 1905 Jubilee Medal or 1911 Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille usually indicates an officer, since only certain NCOs were eligible for either medal. The DA could be an officer's 24, but that wouldn't really fit with only a 4th Class MVO, so more likely for an active NCO or a Landwehr officer/NCO. so... Arthur Emil Rudolf Hädicke - Born 5 November 1885 in Camburg, Kreis Saalfeld, Sachsen-Meiningen - Entered service 18 October 1906 in 5/10. bay. FAR - Gefreiter and Unteroffizier promotions in 1908, then Sergeant in 1912, Vizewachtmeister in 1913, Offizier-Stellvertreter in 1916. - Served in the war with several different Bavarian FARs and RFARs - EK2 (9.10.14), BsMV (5.11.15), BMV5bX (20.3.16), SMM (15.12.15), BPRLM, BD1, VAs (30.6.18) As an NCO, he was a Kapitulant, so I assume that's why he was eligible for the Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille. I've been trying to find some elusive Bavarian/Meiningen combinations, without luck, but while looking I came across this guy, who seemed interesting. Many of the Bavarian SMM recipients got only an SMM and maybe an EK2, while most also got Bavarian awards like the MVK and DA. But so far this is the only Meininger with a Bravery Medal I've come across.

The precedence is my mistake, not relevant to the original question. I actually wasn't sure how a Bavarian would place the non-Bavarian awards - after all Bavarian or after war awards but before other Bavarian. I'm still not sure actually, as I've seen it both ways. So I used later precedence, but without an FKE. Here is a revised version: Regarding the websites, if I manage to get them back up, I will have to extensively revise and update the MMJO bios now that the Bavarian personnel files are available. Regards, Dave

If you saw a ribbon bar with this combination, how would you interpret it?

I also have a boxed, slot-brooch Silver Star similar to Tim's. It is a Bastian Brothers Aug. 9. 1943 contract. For additional reference, here are a DFC and Air Medal with the wrap brooch in question:

This one, by contrast, is re-ribboned. It is an unnumbered DSC, by the style and quality a World War II-era example which probably was originally on a slot brooch, but re-ribboned on a wrap brooch.

The style of full wrap brooch in question was used in issued Silver Stars. Below are two Silver Stars from my collection: On the left N.S. Meyer, Inc., Purchase Order No. 1231, Aug. 16, 1943 Phila. Q.M. Depot On the right: Serial No. 104921 Medallic Art Co., Purchase Order 10408-Jan. 20, 1943 Phila. Q.M. Depot I also noted that the N.S. Meyer example is much thicker than the Medallic Arts piece, but less polished. It looks a bit like the one you showed above.