Schießplatzmeister

Hello Heiko: This is a wonderful photograph. It indeed looks to be a bayerische pre-1905-type MVK in the 3rd position. It also looks as though there are possibly crossed swords appended to the ribbon per the later regulation. The 4th position piece is definately a 1905 Jubilee or Luitpold medal. He is also wearing a long-service clasp for NCO's (but which one is not clear: ? years). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Claudius: Is there any specific information that you are looking for regarding a Bavarian Air Corps member? If so, perhaps there are folks here that can help. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello all: The carbines would certainly make sense for assault troops such as this. Even if they were not always issued, I am certain that they were favored if they could obtain them. For assault troops the range/accuracy of the GEW98 was not as critical. In most cases the rifle became secondary to grenades, pistols, entrenching tools, etc. once the gap was closed during an assault. The carbine was lighter and therefore easier to carry. It was also easier to manouver with in an enemy trench if it had to be utilized (or even once it was slung). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Hipnos: I saw this too. Not only is the EKII a modern forgery, but many of the ribbons appear to be modern. I have also never seen a large medal bar from this period put together in this manner. So overall, the value of the group would only include the market value of the four (4) remaining pieces on the bar [of which some appear to possibly be non-issued (period?) restrikes]. So, this is definately not good. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Bear: This is a wonderful portrait. Thank you for sharing it with us. Unfortunately, I don't see much here that could assist regarding identification of this Officer. If only there were a few Orders worn! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Barry: I have found this website very helpful in the past: http://members.home.nl/uythoven/Wurttemberg/Wurttemberg%20officers.htm Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Paul: You are correct, there would be no way to be 100% certain of the recipient of these medals without supporting documents, photos, etc. He was undoubtedly awarded the MEI and MEII during the 1864 and/or 1866 campaigns. Is the MEI marked? The Austrian bravery medal looks to be silver to me, but it could be gilded (it is difficult to determine with the lighting). Best regards, "SPM"

Beau: You are absolutely correct regarding this piece. This is a medal that was for display on flags of the BKB. It was originally suspended from an half blue and half white ribbon. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Lars: This is not an exact representation of a Bavarian Pilot's Qualification Badge. It does however have elements of that design: Bavarian Crown and pilot's badge shape and wreath. The center has the design of the "winged-propeller" which of course was the design of the epaulette device for the German Air Service. This is therefore in my opinion something which may have been available for Bavarian Air Service veteran's to purchase after the War. As to the exact date of manufacture, I can't be certain. There are many others on this site who are Imperial German aviation experts who will certainly know more about this particular item. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello avadski: Yes, such a thing was indeed possible. A good number of senior NCO's received battlefield commissions and were later awarded the MVO IV w/swords. Thus, one sees a mix of NCO and Officer grade awards to one individual. I believe that these battlefield commissions were only considered temporary. Such a practical solution to the Officer attrition problem was apparently necessary. Senior NCO's with their extensive combat experience could fill such a role brilliantly. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Matt: The standard awarded early war crosses were made of iron and were magnetic. This piece looks to be made from "war metal" or aluminum possibly. The suspension is either a repair or the suspension was made in this fashion, but it deviates 90 degrees from the suspension on awarded pieces. Yes, the finish is irregular which is from a poor paint application or flaws in the piece itself (possibly from casting?). The arms are stippled which was not a feature of awarded pieces (but has been known on later replacement pieces). Although this may be a late war or post war private purchase piece, with so many original awarded iron pieces out there, I would pass on this one. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Sascha: An excellent point. Yes, you are indeed correct, the pre-1905 Commander's Cross was the same as the post-1905 II Class. Before 1905, the Knight 1st Class looked like the post-1905 MVO III (this type has flames between the arms). Before 1905 the Knight 2nd Class looked the same as the post-1905 MVO III, except without flames between the arms. What I had meant to articulate (but did not do so properly) was that the MVO II and the MVO Knight II are different. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello avadski: Yes, this is the newer-type (post 1905) MVO II. It is certainly gold and it looks good to me from the photos. This piece is from the Tammann collection. The only problem with it is the slight damage to the enamel. But, most of these pieces are encountered with some chipping usually. Kuenker is a good auction house and has an excellent reputation. These pieces were catalogued by Mr. Autengruber who is well-respected in this field. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Rick: It is interesting that you should mention Kühn. His large medal group is being offered for sale currently. Unfortunately, the original Gold (in real gold) St. Heinrich Medal was removed from the group and there is a horrible copy in place of it. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello: This MIGHT be OK. But, the lack of an EKII is not usual. It seems that it is possible to not have received it though. This fellow was in the Bavarian Army in 1905 and received the Jubilee medal (the ribbon looks OK, and is probably faded a bit). This award screams "old soldier", and has nothing to do with being in a non-combat role. It only concerns being in the Army long-before 1914. He was then still in the Army during the 1914-1918 conflict and received the MVKIII with swords (perhaps as an NCO who was in an administrative position of some sort?). There is no "beamten" ribbon, but I guess that such a thing was possible. He was awarded the 15 Year Service Cross as an NCO (he was never an Officer). He then survived into the 1930's and received his Hindenburg Cross with Swords and his 25 Year Third Reich Civil Service Cross (missing). Perhaps the Ludwig Cross belonged to a relative or his wife and was just stuck there by someone. It is difficult to be certain without seeing the back of the group and handling it, if the group's basic construction is genuine. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello avadski: Congratulations on obtaining this genuine late war (~1918) zinc-alloy/steel example. These as you know are much rarer than the other copper pieces that are often seen. As to the maker, I imagine that like most other MVK's, the majority were made by Gebruder Hemmerle, München, but Weiss u. Co., Leser, etc. may have made these too. Without markings on the piece and without the packing materials (envelope?) that the piece came in (if this was labelled by the maker), it is impossible to tell. When the MVO/MVK book finally is published, all may be revealled. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: There are no good books out there currently in my opinion, but..... I have heard rumors of an excellent book on the MVO (and perhaps the MVK) which will shortly be published by an expert in Germany. So, save your money for that book when it is published. "SPM"

Hello Avadski: Unfortunately, I believe that you are probably correct in your estimation regarding this piece. It was most likely a genuine MVKIII with swords piece at one time. It is easy for a forger to remove the swords and use a small grinding tool, or file, to remove all traces of the hole through which the swords were pinned. In twenty (20) years of collecting, I have never seen one of these that I am comfortable with. I therefore don't have one in my collection (nor a pilot's qualification badge nor a submarine badge for that matter). I would only feel comfortable with one of these if in came with a group of items and the document (another thing that I have never seen because there were relatively few awards). Although it is not possible to be 100% certain regarding your piece without inspecting it personally, I would have to say that it is most likely an altered piece. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello M. Hunter: The Ottoman "Iron Half-moon" is probably good from what the photos reveal (although it is difficult to tell from the poor quality of the photos). The painted versions were actually awarded. The enamelled versions were pieces commissioned by German and Austrian recipients. I believe that all of the painted pieces with this type of pin were made in the Ottoman Empire. Unfortunately, prices for these items have been steadily on the rise and there is a healthy market in copies now (at least for the enamelled pieces). I do not know if the painted pieces are copied now, but I would assume that there could be copies about as there is enough of a market incentive for criminals to do so. Also, the original painted pieces are not well finished and would be relatively easy to replicate convincingly. There is a Turkish/Ottoman section on this website and you could search for more information there as this topic has been covered extensively. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: The only listings of 1870/71 TKM recipients that I am aware of are in Bavarian regimental histories. I have never seen a TKM awarded to a non-Bavarian during any time period. I find it extremely unlikely that the recipient of this group was not a Bavarian. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: It would not be possible to come up with the recipient's name in my opinion. There are far too many NCO's and soldiers who probably received this combination of awards. Stogieman is correct in that a Bavarian would probably with few exceptions never place his TKM behind the EKII in a group. This makes the group highly unusual. I have however seen a photo of an 1870-71 Bavarian veteran who did wear his TKM behind the EKII with the medals pinned to his tunic individually. For Bavarians, they usually wore the TKM in the first position on their large medal groups until the mid-1930's when the NSDAP regulations changed everything to a standardized Prussian bias (even MMJO Knight's Cross recipients had to wear their MMJO BEHIND the lowly EKII!!). The TKM in this group is genuine, and the ribbon for it is old (original). This looks to be a good group that has not been messed with (although a somewhat unusual group in my opinion). This is of course the second coinage of the silver TKM awarded for the 1870-71 conflict. Congratulations Dond on obtaining such a nice group! Best regards, "SPM" (note that the new website format has changed me from "Schießplatzmeister" to "Schie?platzmeister").

Well....it is strange that you should mention the Russian star Wildcard. This piece was in a collection with the very star that made its way to George's collection. I remember when these items came up for sale through a "dealer" in New York. I do not remember the name of the person who had the collection originally unfortunately. I do remember a vast collection of Bavarian regimental histories from this source that were overpriced and which I passed on. I do wish I had them today though (although they still would not even be worth today what was asked for them then). Sadly, the library was broken-up and went to "who knows where". There was a gold (silver-gilt) Bavarian Bravery Medal in this collection also. And if I remember correctly, perhaps a MVO Officer's Cross. Most of the collection was long-gone before I saw it. Best regards, "SPM"

I believe that Sascha (who is known to be very good at these matters) is correct. The medal in the last position looks to be a bit small (~30mm?) to be a Bavarian TKM. Would it have been possible for Bavarians to possibly receive the Prussian Kriegerverdienstmedaille as "foreigners" during the colonial conflicts??? If have never seen this before and don't believe it to be probable, but perhaps it is an obscure possibility??? But looking again and again, there DO appear to be lighter (blue??) edge stripes to the ribbon like a TKM!!! The mystery continues! Best regard, "SPM"

Hello David: Here is all of the information regarding the source: Zelosko, Frank. F?r Badens Ehre, Milit?rischer Karl=Friedrich=Verdienstorden und Verdienstmedaille, 1807-1918, Zweiter Band. Frank Zelosko. Mosbach, 2003. Page 167. Best regards, "SPM"

From "F?r Badens Ehre", by Frank Zelosko, Zweiter Band: "Roggenbach, Constantin von. * April 1794. Sekondeleutnant im DragonerRgt von Freystedt. Ritterkreuz am 4.November 1813 {Ordre vom 2.Mai 1813}, [164] ...wegen seiner Verdienst im Feldzug gegen Ru?land und Preu?en 1813 ...Teilnehmer an der Stiftungsfeier des MCFVO am 4.April 1857" Best regards, "SPM"