Schießplatzmeister

Hello Dante: All of the awards seem fine. It looks to me though as though the EK ribbon is probably of modern stock. I also see a bit of cotton? padding sticking out on the right side of the EK ribbon. My guess is that someone "upgraded" this from a standard EK bar to a non-combatant bar. But, the only way to tell for certain is to have it in hand. Best of luck with this. "SPM"

Hello everyone: This bar looks perfectly fine. The only problem to note is...."The MVOx is marked for silver content with some remains of silver wash". If the MVO is silver (ie, has content markings), then it should not have a "silver wash" or plating. Perhaps there was a clear coating and where this remains, the surfaces didn't tarnish????? What are the markings exactly, and what is there location? This looks like an earlier piece with gold centers and multi-piece center medallions. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Dante: Yes, it is a standard WWI-era awarded piece. So, this was a Junior Officer who didn't survive until 1934 (no Hindenburg Cross). Best regards, "SPM"

Thank you for your warning Jason! This is indeed the same fellow again. He is even using a photo of ex-Heiko's Bavarian Officer's bar with service in China again! This fellow is a very persistant criminal! He couldn't stop wasting oxygen soon enough as far as I am concerned. "SPM"

Charles: This piece looks to possibly have a painted iron wreath and a silver center too! It is very close to the "Meybauer" piece of mine, of course without the markings, and the pin is very slightly different. Interesting! "SPM" p.s.: The more that I look at the piece that started this thread, from the obverse, it looks like the wreath and center are made from brass which was then plated/painted (it is difficult to tell thought due to colour variation with scanners/cameras). Sorry, I see that Ferg1 already noticed this!

A bit of paper to go along with the hardware. "dem Gefr. d. L. I. Mathias Be?er/ R.I.R. 118, 8. Komp./ 21. 8. 1917" On the reverse: "Im Felde, den 31. Aug. 1917.", Unit stamp, Signature (I can't read it), and "Obstltn. u. Rgts-Kdeur." Sorry, I had trouble getting this to show-up any larger than this. "SPM"

Hello ccj: I checked the piece in my collection and it does indeed have an iron wreath which is finished with black paint. The center is silver and is marked "925" and has the "Meybauer" marking. The intent I believe was to have this be a sort of EKI equivalent. Hence the name "Krieger-Ehrenzeichen in Eisen" (Warrior Decoration in Iron) and hence the use of iron to construct the wreath. Undoubtedly, there were genuine period pieces which were all made of "Kriegsmetal" which was finished accordingly. So, a non-magnetic wreath does not necessarily constitute a dud. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello ccj: It doesn't have to be magnetic to be an original piece. I am just curious if it is a ferrous alloy. I believe that I have a piece that is, but I will have to re-check my piece to be certain (I simply can't recall). Best regards, "SPM"

Sorry folks: I didn't mean to be so abrupt with my last post [sometimes I love to hear myself talk (write)]. I think this would be a good point for members to post photos of their original 25 Year Oak Leaves. It can easily be shown what is genuine, so that those pieces will be the standard, and so that a poorly cast forgery will be easier for folks to spot (by deduction). Not science, but the closest thing we could probably come up with. Tom, I know that you can point us in the right direction! I apologize to all of the non-EK folks for de-railing the discussion regarding the group which originlly started this post. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello ccj: It looks right to me: It seems to have a silvered "kriegsmetal" center and an iron wreath which was painted black. Is the wreath magnetic? Congratulations! "SPM"

Hello Vic: In my eyes, you were VERY smart to post these photographs! We are all on a learning curve with these items. There was a day not long ago when I would have possibly plopped down hard-earned cash for a piece such as this. It is always smart to post photos of items here BEFORE you purchase them if you have any doubts about them (just don't mention who is selling it). There is a wealth of knowledge available from the folks who frequent this site (and a lot of folks who specialize in the Pour le Merit?-I however do not). I hate to frighten you, but there are very good quality copies of PlM that I believe often fool relatively experienced collectors. I still do not have a PlM. Perhaps someday, but I am patient. I know of a few outstanding pieces in collections. Only once-in-awhile at rather high prices do genuine pieces surface for sale. So, save you money and be patient (and post those photos!). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello all: I see that a scientific analysis is requested regarding the 25 Year Oak Leaves. Without handling the piece to weigh and measure it, I can't provide any except to state that this particular item is unlike ANY known originals. Unless this particular one-of-a-kind privately made piece has been tucked-away since 1895, no one else has ever seen one like it either and has never published a record of it. To "prove" that it is not original is impossible, unless I caught the individual in the process of making it yesterday, took the piece as evidence, took photographs, and had witnesses sign statements supporting my claim. This would be necessary because most asuredly, later-on the forger will certainly deny that they made the piece in question. What I have come to rely on are texts regarding the subject matter (old and new), auction catalogues (old and new), the viewing of pieces in collections, and the opinions of fellow collectors who specialize in certain areas (Iron crosses are not my particular "specialty"). I don't mean to take the fun out of collecting, but if we are not honest with fellow collectors, then the same mistakes will be made again and again by others. I know that I have made a great many mistakes collecting, but I hopefully grow from them and hopefully become a bit wiser for the future. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello: If I am not mistaken, I see the markings "935" and "W" on the suspension pie. This piece was definately not made by Wagner! The workmanship and finish of this piece are also very poor. Thus, I believe this to be a forgery made in the not too distant past. I do not believe it to be made by Rothe either, as their forgeries are usually of higher quality than this. With all such items, I believe that melt determines the value, although without testing this, I wouldn't even be certain that it is gilded-silver. Run away from this piece as fast as you can! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello all: I hate to also be the bearer of bad news, but the 25 year oakleaves do not look like any that I have ever seen before. In fact, they look to be rather crude (perhaps cast). The pin on the reverse of the bar is also unlike one that I have seen before (these were usually rather standard during this time period). I believe that Sascha may be on to something here. I for one trust his judgement (especially regarding items from Baden). Without personally inspecting the rest of the bar though, it would be difficult for me to determine how/when it was made. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Dond: Opinions vary slightly according to various sources. According to H&S, for the last coinage, the numbers awarded were as follows: Gold/ Silver-gilt/ Silver 1870-71: 133/ 0/ 612 1914-18: 745/ 453/ 2,932 Totals: 878/ 453/ 3,544 Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Paddywack: That is an interesting piece that you are sharing with us. It is a non-issued, privately-made piece. It looks to be a "copy" made before 1945 for actual recipients of the medal. The die-variation is very interesting. A very nice quality piece. Congratulations, and thank you for showing this medal to us. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: Beware: Ebay member "Ruestkammer88" with a "0" feedback rating and who has been a member since 08/17/08 is listing items that are not owned by him/her. This appears to be the same individual who was selling photos only from auction catalogues awhile back. I will not post a link as this has sometimes caused problems in the past. Please go to Ebay.de directly and look up the following examples: 1) 260278106443: This is a photo of the cover of the current Landshuter R?stkammer catalogue. This individual (Ruestkammer88) is most certainly not a representative of the auctionhouse! 2) 260278115748: This is a photo of a group that I believe was sold in another auction or by private sale recently (I believe that Heiko may have had a group like this?). Look at the other items listed by this "seller" for more amusing examples! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Scott: I saw this one too. Unfortunately, the photos on the website where this is offered do not allow for a 100% certainty that this is genuine. From the fuzzy photos, it looks OK. The poor quality photos however do not allow one to see the details that cause one to have no doubts. By the way, IF this is genuine, the price at which it is being offered is very attractive. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Kev: This fellow seems to be wearing the ribbon for the Hohenzollern Principality House Order Merit Medal. He probably was awarded the Silver Class with Swords. There is no sword device on the ribbon, but since he was a combat soldier, it would have been an "overstatement" anyway. Can anyone make out what unit this is? Is it one of the Hohenzollern Regiments (such as the 40th)? Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Micha: No, I didn't notice the wreath variation (but it was there for all to see!). Yes, it is interesting that there is a laurel-wreath instead of an oak-wreath, like the piece on the right. I did notice that the eagle's wings had a different number of feathers, that the crowns were different, the lettering was different, and the indentation to the raised rim on the upper-arm where the suspension loop is soldered on. I feel confident then that this is not a modern copy as a modern copy would be undoubtedly cast from an original. This was probably a privately-contracted die. It is interesting to note that the suspension loop approximates that of a mint-struck piece in design. I will have to look at the piece in my collection and my reference literature tonight when I get home. Simply fascinating! Thank you for sharing this piece Micha! "SPM"

Hello Micha: The cross on the right is an original standard mint-struck non-combatant 1866 campaign cross of course. The piece on the left looks like an interesting die-variation, that is close to the official version. Perhaps it was a replacement die officially made when the first one broke during stamping. Or, perhaps it is a piece for private purchase. It looks like it is probably a period piece however. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: The ?se on these "reductions" was struck from the same piece of stock as the planchet, a hole was drilled in the tab to make the "eyelet", and it was then twisted 90 degrees to give it the proper configuration for the addition of the ribbon ring. The first "reduction" piece shown is undoubtedly bronze or gilded-bronze, but has had a silver ribbon ring added at a later date. I believe that these pieces were probably popular for 1870-71 campaign medal recipients as replacements to be used on their large medal bars. All of the medals would then be the same size and hang at the same level. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: This group sold for $5,666.00. I wonder who the winner was? Congratulations to someone! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Eric: Thank you for sharing the photographs of your very nice pieces. The miniature is especially nice! Please note that I believe that the larger (full-size) piece is an issued cross struck from bronze. The piece was gilded and the recessed areas were blackened. Bavarian Officers (and other Officers) often had their crosses gilded (as "luxury" pieces if you will). This way they looked very nice all of the time (didn't develop the lovely green patinae that would stain their uniforms and didn't need to be polished). I imagine that a gold cross could exist, but it would undoubtedly have to have been cast from an issued piece. Best regards, "SPM"