farmer

Hi, Excellent piece, can you get a clsose up of the punch mark (reverse suspension - left side)?

Westfale, It was most likely made by Fr. Wunsch in Diekirch, nice medal. Age hard to tell, likely after 1920's though.

Stuka/GM1, Congrats gents, nice medals! There are many copies on the market so good to see you have good ones. Originals were made by the French firm of Phillipe Leclerc and punch mark was normally struck to the suspension eye (this is often obscured though).

Hello all, This is quite interesting topic, sorry I am so late to the 'party' here. Guy, excellent mini - probably the best I've ever seen of the medal, congratulations!! Megan, the Dutch/French language placement on the post 51 type was not clearly specified in the statutes (not that I could tell while reading through the 'mess') so it really was left up to the manufacturers. Walravens's pieces tend to have the Dutch language on top quite a bit, especially in the Order of Leopold II, some of the newer Wolfers's had that too. Dutch language only inscriptions were not authorized in the Statutes though. I asked this question at DeGreef's shop in the 1990's (production manager), he told me that they make whatever recipient wants in regards to language - as long as the main design stays the same (which is odd for they are changing the design). Belgoman, I really like your post explaining the reasoning for the lower numbers of Bronze and Silver medals (similar case with Palms). My research also indicates that earlier awards in bronze were frowned upon by the Belgians and normally given to the Congolese and others. VC89, to catalogue and actually recognize each medal by maker would be a very interesting albeit complicated and time consuming project. Yes, boxes of issue can help (providing those were the actual cases as provided by the maker). Crown styles can help somewhat but due to many sub-contracting issues would probably not be 100% accurate. Considering that Wolfers and DeVigne Hart were probably the earliest (Belgian) manufacturers of the Order is a starting point. Quality of both manufacturers is quite good. Both firms continued on for quite some time though and to determine age can only be done by tedious comparisons of many examples on hand. I have 36 medals (in all 3 grades) - and still I have very hard time cataloguing these. 2 of my earliest DeVigne Hart's came with box that has a particular impressed trim to the edge (silver and gold medal, also gold palms). One boxed silver by Wolfers is of very good quality but very similar to much later example by DeGreef wich was probably made by Wolfers but distributed by DeGreef's shop. In my opinion, those of cruder quality were made by Fisch, Fonson and a couple of other smaller manufacturers (pre 51 type). Those post 1951 would be so hard to pinpoint and catalogue by maker, with probably 10 different firms distributing those. 2 of my post 1951 medals have silver hallmark and 'FIBRU''s mark to the rim so this was easy to tell, otherwise it is anyone's guess.

Hey, Your LII Knight looks certainly good. I like the tarnished stripe, even though it does not appear gold on this side. Looks like Fisch probably after WW2. Nice example.

You have some very nice pieces GM1, congrats! One is a French made example, 2nd Empire period but maker is not entirely apparent (few name do come to mind though). The other one looks like early F. Heremans, perhaps even J. Heremans. As to your ribbons with gold stripes, be very carefull since those are quite rare and often 'added' in order to increase the value. Only very keen eye can tell the difference and usually not with 100% accuracy. We can buy a lot of them in Belgium (probably made in the East anyway) currently (and I've been seeing them around for the last 10-15 years, in the past it was a rarity on the marked (even in Belgium) . Look for tarnished gold threads (gilding on those will often go dark with age), also ribbons that are very purple do not look good to my eye. Your crosses are of different manufacturers and periods, having identical looking ribbons is not a good sign (not in my humble opinion anyway). I've been 'stung' by those in the past in the Commander level - that did not come cheap either.

Second one is most likely by Fernand Heremans, definitely not Fonson.

Looks like a very late example, not likely by Buls (possibly Wolfers or Heremans) - look at the super flat lion.

Elmar, This was just a hunch (with Souval). Olszewski may have produced copies of Orders (they certainly made a lot of copies of Polish regimental badges) but probably from 1980's on which reiterates my stand on that piece. No wonder Mr. Thies was advertising it as "as is". In any case, I personally would not purchase this star (even if it were cheap) - just does not feel right to me.

Brian, Thank you. Yes, there are couple of 'Spanish crown' Officer crosses in my display case. LOH was certainly an influence with L1 Order's design and structure. Also, Dutch Miltary Order of Willem along with Royal Guelphic Order and even Order of the Bath (spanish crown - look at pre 1817 design of that Order and compare the crowns - many believe King wanted that particular crown on 'his' L1 Order). I don't think Belgians simply copied LOH award system. 1832-1839 Commander class was different; 1839 Grand Officer was also unique (only breast star - no neck badge). More like LOH/Willem combination if anything. Swords were featured right from the beginning and many believe this was probably influenced by Guelphic Order. LOH did not use swords. Size wise (for Knight/Officer) - Dutalis's (1st crown type) crosses were pretty much around 39-40mm. Allard's (2nd crown type) were mostly 40mm. Buls's earlier crosses - I have 2 as large as 43mm, his later (Buls's 2nd crown type) examples are for the most part around 40mm. Some examples had been made to model French reduced-size crosses for wear. Those were mostly French-manufactured for the French recipients (probably as additional insignia). I have 2 early (french hallmarked for pre 1838) crosses that are 32/33mm. Chancery awarded Belgian-made crosses so anything made in France or England is unlikely an issued piece; rather privately purchased second. This is of course in the realm of the earlier awards, say until 1880's or so. There were some early Commander's breast crosses (tinsel/bullion) made in France. I think Dutalis's examples were all in metal but those are super rare in any form as no longer issued after 1839. 'Spanish' crown type was manufactured solely by Dutalis. I have not seen a full sized French-made example with this exact crown. Wolfers; Guillame came to Brussels in 1836 and did some work as jeweller, however I am yet to see a L1 Order from that time period by him. His son (Gustav) was born in 1846 - this is the name you will see most often on cases/plaques. It is not known if he produced any L1O insignia prior to Buls's death in 1878 (Buls had the contract). It is most likely that only around 1885 Gustave Wolfers got part of the contract to become supplier to the chancery of the Order. Hope this helps.

Elmar, I am simply going by the similarity in design and finishing of ther star itself (similar to Souval's re-makes of the German Eagle Order, Azad-Hind and number of others they 'cranked out'). What makes you think Olszewski would even attempt such creation; they never made any Orders (to my knowledge) and firm never started any production until II Republic (after WW1) - to my knowledge this just does not add up. Unless you're thinking it is a very recent (which is what I think) 'creation'. Besides, this mark on the pin is as far away from Polish marks as it gets. I personally think this is a fictious mark, made to look like some form of Russian pre 1917 mark. Whoever made it was probably trying to go for the double headed eagle but never bothered to actually check what those marks looked like (especially shape and size of the container).

Linas This is probably long 'dead' subject but no Polish White Eagle Order had ever been issued (or even considered) with swords. Correct me if I am wrong here but was not Virtuti Militari Polish Kingdom's sole Order for Military not the White Eagle (or Saint Stanislaw). To me, this star looks to be of typical Souval manufacture. I think our good Doctor (I presume this is who Linas have been talking to) has been drinking too much coffee if he even considered this to be genuine Polish award. Also, hallmark is strange - I've studied hallmarks for 30 some odd years. Just out of curiosity I have gone over my books of European silver marks. The only 2 that are anywhere close to that mark are from Netherlands (2 different cities from XVII and XVIII centuries). No Russian or Polish mark contained within rectangle comes anywhere near what is struck on that star. I searched for marks that were rectangular, also marks featuring clearly defined dots (on top or bottom) and as last resort I checked all double headed eagle marks (this is where 2 Dutch marks popped up but shape of container is different). Just to be certain, I checked marks that were not easily defined - also no match. Another thing, this mark is way too large if intended as a metal purity mark. If anything, it could be maker mark. Seems there is something strange about this piece but it is your money. Good luck.

Elmar/Brian It would be an amazing find if you had copy of VE I statutes!!

Yankee, Unfortunately I do not have VE I statutes (I've been trying to find them or even basic translation for quite some time). Carlo Alberto's statutes (I have a shortened translation) defined Order's structure as: - Knight (in two categories : Knight of Justice and Knight of Grace). Cross was small sized on ribbon (no crown). There were no limits to numbers. - Commander; Cross was of larger (then Knight) size and worn with the neck ribbon. No crown. This class is said to be limited in numbers (my translation does not specify). - Grand Cross; Cross still larger (then Commander) in size and with crown. Worn on sash ribbon. Breast star was to be worn on left side and was to have embroidered gold/silver rays between arms. GC was limited in numbers (also no indication in my translation). Further, it specifes Order's uniform (along with hat, epaulettes and dress sword). I think stars with embroidered rays were only used at the beginning since the all metal stars were the 'fashion' of the time. Most 'big' Orders were switching to them starting around 1820's or so (Austrians and the French did so). Sadly, I do not have any of those early crosses in my collection but have seen (even handled) several in museums and 2 different collections. All seem to be made in gold and no 2 were identical. I doubt any one jeweller had a contract from chancery. Seems it became more 'organized' in that regard after 1851 secularization of the Order by VE II. Yes, all of the Knight classes were rather small as far as I remember (maybe 20mm or so). Grand Cross looked gigantic in comparison. One thing I noticed was all Commanders had this swivelled-like suspension and relatively small ribbon retainer. I will try to contact one of my friends who have some examples and hope he'll forward some photos. Take care. Farmer

Yankee, I am not sure if this is what you seek but wasn't it Carlo Emanuele (Duke of Savoi) who made changes and merged insignia of both Orders into one. They wore them as an embroidered mantle badge and somewhat later made into neck badge in gold and enamels. This change took place some time before Duke's death in 1630. I am not certain what exactly did Vittorio Emanuele I changed (in the 3 books dealing with statues and regulations of the Order) but major modification took shape during reign of Carlo Alberto on Dec. 3 1831. Examples (that I saw) dating from that period already had those raised round tips. Does anyone know what was in those VE I period statues in regard to insignia? Farmer

Just stumbled onto this topic, # 7 could be Belgian Crown Order instead of LOH, I see a lot of symmetry between arms.

Tim, I was just looking through some of my palms and found few that are seemingly identical on 4 of my L1's (and couple more on the L2's). Quality is very good on those.

Gents, Punch marks are fun but can be very frustrating to 'decipher'. At times even best lighting cannot make them clear. Obviously, the most common problem is miss-strike of a punch. Often only a part of the mark is visible rendering identification very difficult if at all possible. Knowing particular maker marks well helps in identifying partial impressions. I am quite surprised how few collectors study those marks in detail. Capturing them well is another kettle of tea as Tim is finding out firsthand. Small (and cheap) microscope of 30x - 100x is often quite invaluable. Radio shack used to have them here in North America for $ 20 or so. Very difficult to photograph through them but possible with small-lensed POS digicams. In addition - Chobillon indeed made many medals, badges and Orders - also some Belgian. I photographed AC's marks. From left to right are the oldest to the most recent (one in rectangular punch) as used from 1950's on. Mark at the bottom was (according to my information) only used on the Interallied Victory medals since there was no room for the full 'diamond-shape' punch. Tim, I also checked my database for French makers with "M L" or "M I" and came up empty. Firm of Magaire & Tailleur used 'M (small flower) T' that can possibly appear as 'MI' but my notes indicate they were sold in 1885. Jules Monney (MJ) went out of business in 1895 so it also cannot be. There are few others with MJ but they did not make medals or badges (according to my database on Parisian jewelers and silversmiths). Have fun with marks!!

Tim/Rob, Sorry to create this bit of en 'enigma' for you. I had at one time Military Cross 1st class by Marius Delande, punch was like one in Rob's post but there were others in use. So my guess as to maker behind your MC was based on that. Marius used this mark from 1907-1942. Guideline of the 'diamond-shape' maker (master) marks was mentioned for the first time in 1838, revised in 1896. In reality, firms made marks in various shapes. Trends to stray away from the 'diamond-shape' are (for the most part) apparent from the end of the Great War on. One would have to follow each (individual) firm in order to accurately date their marks and this is not easy if even possible (many firms ceased their operation as a result of WW2). Below is mark of MD on piece that is no longer in my posession. I photographed it long time ago. If memory serves me well, boar head mark was also present. Cheers.

Image of 3 different Royal cyphers on cases - those are the most commonly seen but there are others with slight differences.

This can be very difficult unless you have original case of issue with Royal cypher on top. Earliest pieces usually used the simpler version with V.E or VE (Vittorio E II), followed by the U (Umberto) and the conjointed VE (Vittorio E III). Bear in mind there were at least 20 manufacturers of this Order through the years and some are quite obscure and unlike the most commonly seem (Cravanzola, Unione Militare, Borani, S. Johnson etc.) details differ greatly. Most of the early awards were in gold but that is far from being acurate as far as dating. Each maker had some common details that changed somewhat over the years and this is probably best way of dating but a long and tedious method indeed. Some splendid pieces were also made by foreign manufacturers (French, Austrian even Russian) as late as WW1 period (though I doubt Rothe made any during WW1). Few pieces were clearly marked and Italians rarely marked their products during VE II;U reigns (even material marks were optional when it comes to awards). In my opinion, if you haven't got an original box but can narrow it down to a ruler's time period - that's pretty good.

Tim, Unfortunately I cannot make this out. Needs much higher level of magnification but I am afraid even then there is not enough detail to 'decipher' it. After 1869 (until 1942) Belgian silver marks were simply letters A or A with 2 small slashes (depending on silver content), gold marks were simple gothic style letters. During 1930's some firms used the 800 or 900 or AR even though it was not official or approved by the administration). From 1942 on the mark of A 925/835 within oval was used but for short period. Later on mark in style of a four-petalled flower with 1 or 11 (for .925 and .835 silver) was used. Maker marks were never regulated so it was up to each firm to do whatever they wanted in that regard. Silver/gold marks were required but not always struck. In reality and in our realm of interest many marks are just not noticed or so obscured that even if you know what you're looking for - often identification is hard. French marks were observed to much higher degree and most pieces made in France are marked. Items in bronze or other (non precious metal) were rarely marked at all. All of L1 Order older pieces were marked nicely and first 3 Belgian makers always used the master mark along side of silver/gold mark. Often these are very hard to find and only partial but all of my early badges have those marks present in some capacity. Oh, I have just noticed a typo in my previous post (but I cannot edit it now). In the line: "interlaced initial WF" it should read 'WG' instead. Sorry. Take care.

Tim, Very hard to tell based on what is visible. To my (limited) knowledge, Wolfers registered only 2 marks and both rather early. One used on smaller items was in form of intricate interlaced initial WF, the other one (head) was used on much larger objects. I have only seen the small (WG) punch mark on one L1, Officer from 1890's or so. Otherwise, Wolfers's markings on Orders were pretty much limited to plaques on the stars. I'd love to be proven wrong here. There was yet another mark that Wolfers used but only on foreign pieces - this was in rectangular form of man's head within a circle - letters GW on either side of the circle. I saw that mark on one Order from Vatican and another one from Persia. I have my doubts as far as your piece coming out of Wolfers's shop - details are just so different. Never the less, it certainly looks like something there. See if you can get a better close up of it.

Tim, Always a nice find. Looks like late 1930's punch.