Soviet Putin Orders Inventory of All Russian Museums

[slava1stclass]

To all:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/10...t.ap/index.html

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Ed_Haynes]

Should be interesting . . . !!!

[GeorgeCL]

Its about time..

I guess it wouldnt be happening if they were paid a living wage.

George

[Riley1965]

It's a shame that a better system of inventory was not in place. I wouldn't doubt if some of it was an inside job. It's a little late to close the barn doors after the horses have got out!!

Doc

[NavyFCO]

So here's a question for you... What if Putin goes and puts out a global recall on all items from Russian museums? He could very easily say that anything from a Russian museum was "stolen state property" and claim ownership of anything that was in a museum - even if those items reside in a collection outside Russia. I know that most of us have "former museum items" (though most items are from museums in the Republics) and who would stop their items from being confiscated at shows and the like, especially if Putin's claim on the "restoral of Russian cultural items" was backed up with a partnership with Interpol and the FBI (which would be very reasonable, IMO.)

For anyone that thinks that couldn't possibly happen, what do you think the US (or Britain) would do if items were stolen out of our national museums and sold to collectors in Russia? It's obvious that our security agencies would do everything possible to recover the stolen items, no matter where they ended up (they've done it before.) Why wouldn't the Russians do the same thing???

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

So here's a question for you... What if Putin goes and puts out a global recall on all items from Russian museums? He could very easily say that anything from a Russian museum was "stolen state property" and claim ownership of anything that was in a museum - even if those items reside in a collection outside Russia. I know that most of us have "former museum items" (though most items are from museums in the Republics) and who would stop their items from being confiscated at shows and the like, especially if Putin's claim on the "restoral of Russian cultural items" was backed up with a partnership with Interpol and the FBI (which would be very reasonable, IMO.)

For anyone that thinks that couldn't possibly happen, what do you think the US (or Britain) would do if items were stolen out of our national museums and sold to collectors in Russia? It's obvious that our security agencies would do everything possible to recover the stolen items, no matter where they ended up (they've done it before.) Why wouldn't the Russians do the same thing???

Dave

Does this mean we'd better start deleting threads here?

That is NOT a frivilous question!!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Why wouldn't the Russians do the same thing???

Dave

certain collectors will say... "Well, thats why we have guns, let them usskies try and we will patrick Swayze their a33es till the dawn is red !!"

[Riley1965]

Ed & Dave,

This does raise some definate concerns. I can picture the "witch hunt" for Soviet/Russian ODMs and Militaria. How do we protect the items under our guardianship?

Doc

[order_of_victory]

How do we protect the items under our guardianship?

Buy a big gun , no seriously, unless they could prove the items came from a state museum I cant see any way of them removing them fom private collections

Order of Victory

Edited August 10, 2006 by order_of_victory

[Ed_Haynes]

Buy a big gun , no seriously, unless they could prove the items came from a state museum I cant see any way of them removing them fom private collections

Order of Victory

Well, if the items have the same serial numbers as items that used to be in state collections . . . end of discussion!

This gets us back into a discuission of hosting stolen goods in out collections that was closed down by the club modera

Edited August 10, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[NavyFCO]

Part of my fear would be the irrationality that might well be followed, going along the lines of the thinking of Russian customs. If you've ever had a "bad" run in with them, you know what I mean. 10 years ago, some family came to visit me in Russia. I sent home with them a very large amount of militaria (both German and Soviet) that I had purchased over several months of hitting the flea markets. Unfortunately, the customs agent at the airport saw a flag top (from the early 1920s) in the luggage and wanted to look at it. While pulling it out, they found a single medal..... and that was it! The customs agents proceeded to dig through all of the luggage, pulling out every single medal that they could find, from pre-WW2 through 1988 jubilees! Ironically, I had a good amount of really nice WW2 general officer uniforms in the luggage as well.... No, they weren't interested in that (even though it was more valuable than the medals) they were just interested in the medals only because of their "cultural" value.

Why do I tell this story? The worst case scenario could become a "blind" witch hunt. A HSU group, whether it was in a museum or not, definately does represent some of the "cultural heritage" of the country, and could legitimately be confiscated, either under the guise that it COULD have been from a museum (unless you can prove otherwise, and how many people can???) or that it was illegal to export the medals anyway under their laws, so therefore the medals are illegally owned regardless.

Will this ever happen? Probably not. However, any way you cut it the Russians have laws on the books forbidding the sale and export of these medals, therefore we all technically have "illegal" property in our collections that we technically shouldn't be owning.

Interesting to at least think about, eh?

Dave

[Laurence Strong]

This is already happening in Canada

http://thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.c...s=M1ARTM0012523

[alanirvine]

Guard the data base!

Alan

[Guest Rick Research]

Lucky for me, bottom feeding poor boy that I am, I do not have anything which could even delusionally be considered misbegotten cultural property.

In fact, when Soviet items first appeared on the market in the early and mid 1990s, it was because wretchedly poor people--in many cases the recipients themselves, and in others their desperate survivors, were voluntarily selling their own property for food and rent.

THAT is the legacy of Communism-- and the kleptocracy now in place THERE with billionaire Former Comrades whose left hands transferred the People's Property into their own pockets.

So let them figure out how Comrade $1,200 a year annual salary now owns steel mills, TV stations, and property the size of smaller EU countries before they start worrying about Red Stars.

Yeesh!

[rboomsma]

So here's a question for you... What if Putin goes and puts out a global recall on all items from Russian museums? He could very easily say that anything from a Russian museum was "stolen state property" and claim ownership of anything that was in a museum - even if those items reside in a collection outside Russia. I know that most of us have "former museum items" (though most items are from museums in the Republics) and who would stop their items from being confiscated at shows and the like, especially if Putin's claim on the "restoral of Russian cultural items" was backed up with a partnership with Interpol and the FBI (which would be very reasonable, IMO.)

For anyone that thinks that couldn't possibly happen, what do you think the US (or Britain) would do if items were stolen out of our national museums and sold to collectors in Russia? It's obvious that our security agencies would do everything possible to recover the stolen items, no matter where they ended up (they've done it before.) Why wouldn't the Russians do the same thing???

Dave

I have to agree with Dave to a certain point. For most of us collectors, I don't think we need to worry ourselves. But dealers that are selling very rare items may have too down the road, and those who they sold those very rare orders to. I could see that as a possiblity. But only for items taken from museums etc.

Also if you are in possesion of property obtained from state museums, then they are stolen goods and the bottom line is there not yours to own. Even if you didn't know they were stolen. It is no different here. If you buy a victoria cross that some one stole from a musem, you have no right to it.

[slava1stclass]

Guard the data base!

Alan

Alan,

Unfortunately the sad fact is that for many caught in a potential compromising position the simpler solution will prevail namely, the tried and proven Soviet method of pulling out a file/sharp instrument and removing the serial number.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited August 11, 2006 by slava1stclass

[Ed_Haynes]

Ah, back to the old days. I still remember my first OMSA convention (I won't divulge when, but the CCCP was still alive and well). Several large unjolly folks from the Soviet embassy came in on the public day, went around the tables jotting down serial numbers of the few (and incredibly expensive) Soviet awards that were there for sale. I suspect the original recipients could expect a visit? I know that several dealers were de-numbering their stock then and there, with Swiss army knives, before the gentlemen made it to their tables.

Now all they'd have to do is visit several web sites . . . .

[Kev in Deva]

So here's a question for you... What if Putin goes and puts out a global recall on all items from Russian museums? He could very easily say that anything from a Russian museum was "stolen state property" and claim ownership of anything that was in a museum - even if those items reside in a collection outside Russia. I know that most of us have "former museum items" (though most items are from museums in the Republics) and who would stop their items from being confiscated at shows and the like, especially if Putin's claim on the "restoral of Russian cultural items" was backed up with a partnership with Interpol and the FBI (which would be very reasonable, IMO.)

For anyone that thinks that couldn't possibly happen, what do you think the US (or Britain) would do if items were stolen out of our national museums and sold to collectors in Russia? It's obvious that our security agencies would do everything possible to recover the stolen items, no matter where they ended up (they've done it before.) Why wouldn't the Russians do the same thing???

Dave

Hallo Dave

If Russia intends a global recall, I wonder if Putin plans on re-claiming ALASKA under this scenario??, as a LOST RUSSIAN TREASURE thats to big to fit in the Hermatige museum

Kevin in Deva