Soviet The Devaluing of the Hero of Russia

[slava1stclass]

To all:

I thought I'd seen it all, but this one definitely takes the cake: http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=3070

For those of you who don't read Russian here's the bottom line: Awarded the Hero of Russia for her "leading achievements in sports, courage and heroism displayed at the ХVIII Winter Olympics in 1998." As if her four gold and one silver Olympic medals weren't enough.

Now you know why I focus on the Order of Glory with particular emphasis on its Full Cavaliers. Order of Glory = in your face combat valor - no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited August 24, 2006 by slava1stclass

[Digger Doug]

I agree - not to mention that the cavalier performed three separate feats of valor to earn this title.

[NavyFCO]

I think the HSU title was always open to "interpretation" with regard to who it was awarded to. Just look at the first few titles - given for an arctic rescue. Not to say that wasn't valorous, by any stretch, but it wasn't "combat valor" like what the Glory was awarded for. After WW2, the HSU title again went back to being awarded for service to the state. I believe this is the reason they developed the HSL - to account for many of the technical and agricultural (etc.) services that may have been awarded an HSU, but it wouldn't have been the right award (obviously) given what the HSU was awarded for during WW2.

Look at many of the post-war HSUs though... Cosmonauts, aircraft test pilots, and more than a few generals that really didn't do all that much during the War, but were generals later and just NEEDED the pretty gold star on their chest! I think many of those awards could have been HSLs reasonably (like the Cosmonauts and the test pilots) but they weren't. The same goes for the Hero of Russia to the Olympian for showing "heroism and courage" while sitting in a hotel room ordering room service! Now go figure...

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Can part of the problem be our focus on (= bias toward) "things military"? Linked to this is the general denigration of any civil awards. The HSU was not, and was never intended to be, a uniquely military award. While many of these non-combat HSUs may have been more important to the USSR than the military acts that won it, we tend to treat them with disrespect. True, if you want "all military, all the time", stick to the Order of Glory (or watch the History Channel on TV).

[slava1stclass]

Can part of the problem be our focus on (= bias toward) "things military"? Linked to this is the general denigration of any civil awards. The HSU was not, and was never intended to be, a uniquely military award. While many of these non-combat HSUs may have been more important to the USSR than the military acts that won it, we tend to treat them with disrespect. True, if you want "all military, all the time", stick to the Order of Glory (or watch the History Channel on TV).

To all:

Ed raises an interesting point. While I agree that many of this (and other) forum's members tend to focus on the military element, it by no means equates to a general denigration of all things civil. The USSR had more than enough orders/medals that were intended for non-military actions/achievements and some (like the Order of Lenin) that could be legitimately bestowed for either. If the civil side is your kick, all the more power to you.

My personal preference, however, is the military side in particular those orders/medals that were solely bestowed for combat-related valor. As a well-known NYC-area dealer recently opined, if there was only one Soviet order/group of orders he could own, it would be a Full Cavalier group.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited August 24, 2006 by slava1stclass

[jon m.]

I read in Krasnaya Zvezda a couple of years ago where they gave the Hero of Russia medal to some Chechen boy who was killed. Personally I think that it should ONLY be awarded to SOLDIERS for HEROISM, either in war or during times of peace.

[Ed_Haynes]

I read in Krasnaya Zvezda a couple of years ago where they gave the Hero of Russia medal to some Chechen boy who was killed. Personally I think that it should ONLY be awarded to SOLDIERS for HEROISM, either in war or during times of peace.

That may be true, but that isn't the way it has (Soviet => Russian) been awarded. Why the military bias?

Edited October 15, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Riley1965]

I find these "generous" HSU awards to be no different than the 11 "Titles" Hero Cities awarded to Moscow and other cities post GPW. IMHO ONLY Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol & Odessa truly earned the Title. The rest were purely political awards.

Doc

Edited October 15, 2006 by Riley1965

[Ed_Haynes]

I find these "generous" HSU awards to be no different than the 11 "Titles" Hero Cities awarded to Moscow and other cities post GPW. IMHO ONLY Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol & Odessa truly earned the Title. The rest were purely political awards.

Doc

And, of course, "political" awards exist in all nations, in all periods. The HSU was never intended to be a "military-only" award and neither was the Russian successor. The interest comes in seeing how the award was actually given, under what circumstances.

Doc is absolutely right in focusing our attention on teh "Hero City" awards. May I add the various "cosmonaut awards"?

Compare:

[Ed_Haynes]

With:

[Riley1965]

Here is the list of "Hero Cities". There are 9 instead of 11 post GPW.

1Brest Hero-Fortress

2 Minsk

3Smolensk

4 Kiev

5 Odessa

6 Murmansk

7 Saint Petersburg (Leningrad)

8 Tula

9 Moscow

10 Sevastopol

11 Kerch

12 Novorossiysk

13 Volgograd (Stalingrad)

Doc

[jon m.]

That may be true, but that isn't the way it has (Soviet => Russian) been awarded. Why the military bias?

It is just that when I think of "Hero" automatically a soldier comes to mind, then to a lesser extent Firemen and Police. Perhaps it is because I live in US where there is a clear division between awards for military service and civilian service (that is: Firefighters, Police etc.).

In my view, when the Gold Star medal is awarded to a civilian it lessens the magnitude of what the soldiers did to earn the title "Hero of the [soviet Union or Russian Federation]". I mean no disrespect to any civilians who earned the title, but in my opinion ice skating and combat do not come close to each other.

By the way, in modern Russia if you earn two or more "Hero" medals do they still place a bust of you in your hometown?

Jon.

[Bryan]

IMHO ONLY Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol & Odessa truly earned the Title. The rest were purely political awards.

Doc, why not Moscow?

[Bryan]

By the way, in modern Russia if you earn two or more "Hero" medals do they still place a bust of you in your hometown?

I hope they can still ride the metro for free!

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I realize that this is pure conjecture; but that?s what can make these discussions interesting. So, here goes -

What HSU awards would have been made during the GPW had Glory, Nevsky, Suvorov, et al. been in place in June of ?41? Naturally, the same speculation could be applied to the Red Banner, Red Star and Lenin. My guess is that far fewer would have been made; but the dividing lines would be interesting.

As for the ?corruption? of these awards after the GPW, I just don?t think that there would be such a big difference. That was all about empty chests and sensitive egos, anything goes.

One final thought. While we are aware of the military HSU?s awarded from the 60? through the 80?s, what I find even more absurd are the Suvorovs 1st class to Ogarkov and Sokolov.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Stogieman]

Gentlemen, interesting discussion. I have always noticed that a large part of the collecting community has had a tendency to shun not just "Civil" awards, but the peace-time equivalents to combat ards of many house orders.

regarding the "Hero" designation..... if you think the only heros in this world are military you have seriously missed a great deal of your history. Valor comes in many shapes, sizes and colors and not all of it involves weapons........

[jon m.]

I thought about my earlier post and realize that I left out Cosmonauts. While not all deserve the award some truly did, such as Yuri Gagarin, for he was the FIRST MAN in space and his name is subsequently known the world over.

I am biased for the military, firefighters, police and cosmonauts because they operate in a field where a violent death is a part of daily life (such as being blown into a million pieces by high-explosives; burned to death; shot to death; and having your blood boil after being exposed to the vacuum of space - respectively). While the civilians are functioning in a much more "civil" environment, I acknowledge that some may do something that merits the HSU/RF title, but I can't think of any instances at the moment.

This has been a pet peeve of mine for some years and I nearly shat myself when I read the title of this topic.

Anyhow, I am off to class for my first exam over Russian involvement in the Korean War.

Jon.

Edited October 16, 2006 by jon m.

[slava1stclass]

regarding the "Hero" designation..... if you think the only heros in this world are military you have seriously missed a great deal of your history. Valor comes in many shapes, sizes and colors and not all of it involves weapons........

To all:

Personally, I wholeheartedly agree. To award a Hero of Russia for winning a slew of Winter Olympic medals (see first post in this thread), however, is a major distortion.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited October 16, 2006 by slava1stclass

[jon m.]

To all:

Personally, I wholeheartedly agree. To award a Hero of Russia for winning a slew of Winter Olympic medals (see first post in this thread), however, is a major distortion.

Regards,

slava1stclass

That is what comes to mind when I refer to the civilian awarding of the HSU/RF medals. Specifically the ice skaters. I do not consider that in any way, shape or form to be heroic.

Now I really have to go. Jon.

[Ed_Haynes]

An interesting -- if somewhat disturbing -- discuission. I agree with Rick that the prevailing pro-military bias serves to obscure the full dimensions of any system of honors. If sports "heroes" are seen and rewarded as heroes, why can this not be understood? This is especially at issue when the Hero of Socialist Labor is now off the menu in new capitalism Russia?

[slava1stclass]

An interesting -- if somewhat disturbing -- discuission. I agree with Rick that the prevailing pro-military bias serves to obscure the full dimensions of any system of honors. If sports "heroes" are seen and rewarded as heroes, why can this not be understood? This is especially at issue when the Hero of Socialist Labor is now off the menu in new capitalism Russia?

To all:

The Russian Order of Saint Andrew would seem to be an appropriate "on menu" contemporary award. For those of you with a command of the Russian language, check it out at: http://award.adm.gov.ru/

Note, too, the decree establishing the Hero of Russia states: "1. Звание Героя Российской Федерации присваивается за заслуги перед государством и народом, связанные с совершением геройского подвига."

Translation: "1. The title Hero of the Russian Federation is awarded for services before the government and nation characterized by the accomplishment of heroic achievements."

Whereas former U.S. Olympic silver medalist ice skater Nancy Kerrigan would clearly qualify (after surviving Tonya Harding's goons' vicious assault), the same doesn't hold true for the aforementioned Russian skater.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited October 16, 2006 by slava1stclass

[Riley1965]

Soviet,

I initially left Moscow off the list choosing to stick with the four awarded at the end of the GPW. However, after re-reading the history of the Battle of Moscow the city certainly derserves the title. They stopped the German Army Group Centre and kept the Germans from getting more than 30 miles of the city. With the arrival of fresh troops from Siberia ready for winter combat, the germans were pushed back 120km from Moscow and this began the process when the Germans were methodically kicked out of the USSR.

So, yes I do believe that Moscow and Smolensk should have recieved their Title "Hero City" when the original four did.

Doc

[jon m.]

In then end it comes down to how individual people define the term "Hero." I essentially define it as doing something that most people would not do and at great risk of severe injury or death.

Slava. thanks for posting that link, I had given up ever finding it again.

Edited October 16, 2006 by jon m.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

With this discussion of an HSU to an athlete, I would like to throw in a little nostalgia. For those of us old enough to remember - certainly Olga Korbut and Vasili Alekseyev should, depending on how you stand on this issue, have been awarded HSU?s. Two more opposites could not have been created. One a frail looking pixie and the other a super heavyweight weightlifter who had to be four times her size.

Not just by incredible medal winning feats; but, even more significant, with personalities that cut through the depths of the Cold War, they both became international idols. A little research (Wikipedia) indicates that ?In 1999 in Greece Alekseyev was acknowledged as the best sportsman of the 20th century. He was also awarded Order of Lenin (1972), Order of Friendship of Peoples, Order of the Badge of Honor (1970), Order of the Red Banner of Labour (1972).?; but I can not find any list of similar honors to Korbut. I urge you to read their bios and see if you don?t agree - it?s all there especially ?...doing something that most people would not do and at great risk of severe injury...?

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Christian Zulus]

Hero Cities

Gentlemen,

if someone knowns only a little bit about the history of the GPW, there should be no discussion, that the listed cities deserve the title "Hero City":

1 Brest (Hero-Fortress)

2 Minsk

3 Smolensk

4 Kiev

5 Odessa

6 Murmansk

7 Leningrad

8 Tula

9 Moscow

10 Sevastopol

11 Kerch

12 Novorossiysk

13 Stalingrad

For my taste, the list is correct and comprehensive. Consider what happend in the fortress of Brest, remember the battles at Kerch-Penisula or the importance of the city of Tula for defending Moscow!

For the SU-Awards-Collectors-Community ("SUACC") Leningrad will always be Leningrad and Stalingrad will always be Stalingrad: Our focus is at the GPW - and the names are "correct" for that period .

My humble opinion.

Best regards

Christian Zulus