Soviet The Devaluing of the Hero of Russia

[Riley1965]

I listed both names as they were on my list of Hero cities. I know that they were called Stalingrad and Leningrad during the GPW. If you noticed the GPW name was on the list.

As for my knowledge of the GPW, let's just say that I'm not ignorant of the events and crucial battles of the GPW.

Doc

[Christian Zulus]

HSU vs. Glory (Full Cavalier)

Gentlemen,

according to the regulations of the award and the practice, HSU was never a pure military award.

The Order of Glory had been a pure military award for heroic deeds in the line of fire.

I share the opinion of "slava1stclass" and the well known SU-Awards-dealer from NYC: A "Glory-Trio" is the supreme heroic award among the SU-Orders.

Hero Cities

Dear Doc Riley,

o.k., then you will except the official list of the "Hero Cities" . WW II had been won at the Eastern Front and NOT via the "Second Front" in France (one year too late!) or the collaboration of the Western Allies with SS-Obergruppenf?hrer Wolf (frequent meetings with Dulles in Switzerland), SS-Butcher Heinrich Himmler, etc., etc. 75 % of the Wehrmacht & Waffen-SS had been terminated by the Red Army. So a certain number of places in the former Soviet Union have the right to be called "Hero City". Tula is not Huntsville in Texas .

We have in our collections the medals for the "Defense of Leningrad" and "Defense of Stalingrad". Their name is not "Defense of Saint Petersburg" or "Defense of Wolgograd - or Zarzyn". So I stick to the old names.

Best regards

Christian

[Riley1965]

C.Zulus,

Your sarcasm is well known at this forum. It is not appreciated by me or the vast majority of the members of the forum. I guess that I didn't state my list in a way that such a pompous, self-righteous person such as you could understand. The names Volgograd and St. Petersberg were placed there as a matter of current names. I offered up the list to provide information for someone that may not know all of the Hero cities. If this down to earth basic list bothers you, so be it. I am sick and tired of your arrogance!!!

Doc

[Riley1965]

C. Zulus,

Here's a list even you can't dispute:

Hero Cities:

1Brest Hero-Fortress

2 Minsk

3Smolensk

4 Kiev

5Odessa

6 Murmansk

7 Leningrad

8 Tula

9 Moscow

10 Sevastopol

11 Kerch

12 Novorossiysk

13 Stalingrad

Doc

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Doc Riley,

I don't want to be sarcastic at all, but I want to emphasize, that this special section of GMIC is named "Soviet & Eastern Block Orders, Medals & Decorations" and that a large number of GMIC-members from Europe - specially from the former Soviet Union - would not have agreed with your special list of cities, who deserve the distinction "Hero City", you published a few postings before.

Many thanks for your "revised" list of "Hero Cities" .

I feel sorry, if you regard my comments - or maybe other postings by members with their roots in Slavonic Europe - sarcastic. Maybe we are ironic, but never sarcastic or offending. We don't "hate" people from the USA, but we might feel closer to US-citizens like Noam Chomsky, than to George W. Bush . And the role of the US-Administration at the European War Theatre during WW II was a little bit "mysterious" - specially after the death of Roosevelt. The "Cold War" had been a concept of the USA and not of the CCCP!

We collect Soviet awards and we love Soviet awards - this should be our basis. To collect Soviet awards is a difficult and tricky (so many fakes!) business, which costs a lot of money. So the manners among the collectors community should be always friendly and helpful .

Best regards

Christian

[Ed_Haynes]

Please . . . can we play nicely together . . . PLEASE.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Ed,

we are playing nicely together - no problem .

Best regards

Christian

[Riley1965]

C.Zulus,

Your sarcasm is well known at this forum. It is not appreciated by me or the vast majority of the members of the forum. I guess that I didn't state my list in a way that such a pompous, self-righteous person such as you could understand. The names Volgograd and St. Petersberg were placed there as a matter of current names. I offered up the list to provide information for someone that may not know all of the Hero cities. If this down to earth basic list bothers you, so be it. I am sick and tired of your arrogance!!!

Doc

Ed,

I think that I've said all that I have to say on this subject. I provided the list of Hero Cities for those that may not know about them not so that Zulus could start his usual sarcastic responce and his habit of trying to tear appart every post. I post to share information not to be his fodder. All is well!!

Doc

[order_of_victory]

Thanks to this debate on hero cities, I have dug out my atlas to Hero cities awarded in World War II or the GPW

And it lists the Ukaz's for the Hero cities, its in Russian, if any one is intrested I can post a few

It also has a great maps of the battles it's great to use in conjuction with Alexanders Werths Russia at War but this is straying

Order of Victory

[Riley1965]

Let's not forget the German recipients of the Title "Hero of the Soviet Union"

Walter Ulbricht

Fritz Schmenkel

Sigmund J?hn

Erich Honecker

Erich Mielke

Doc

[order_of_victory]

Let's not forget the German recipients of the Title "Hero of the Soviet Union"

Walter Ulbricht

Fritz Schmenkel

Sigmund J?hn

Erich Honecker

Erich Mielke

Doc

Wow DOC, I never relised any Germans got the HSU

Order of Victory

[NavyFCO]

I am starting to find this topic rather amusing... (though I'm not sure if it's in a good way)

Anyway, it seems that everyone is concerned about the fact that the Hero of the Soviet Union is somehow devalued as a military award. How about this for a bit of trivia: The title was founded in 1934, but it wasn't until 1938 that it was first awarded for military combat action, with the first awards being for Khasan!

To quote from "The Comprehensive Guide..." the first paragraph of the regulation estabilishing the Title reads as follows:

"1. The Title "Hero of the Soviet Union" is the highest degree of excellence and is conferred for personal or collective efforts involving a heroic feat for the Soviet State and Society."

As can be seen by this first paragraph, the award was NEVER intended to be a combat-valor-only or single-person-only award. Was it awarded for the highest combat valor? Absolutely? Was it awarded to single people? Duh - of course! But it was also awarded for non-combat actions and to collective groups? Yes it was!

I think this pretty much sums the debate up by acknowledging that it could be awarded to anyone who made a great contribution to the Soviet State or society in general.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Thank you, Dave.

And it isn't clear to me whether we have been talking about the Soviet or Russian hero title/star.

[Stogieman]

Gentlemen... you may consider this your one (1) warning to play nice together.

[Nick]

Gentlemen

An interesting debate which has been brought to my attention. I would ask that members are a little more tolerate of other personal opinion, healthy polite debate is a good thing. But I dislike post that have a clear undertones of a political or indeed even potentially a racist interpretation. Mr Zulus you remarks are bordering on offensive and is a clear breach of gentlemanly etiquette. I do not like ?them and us? comparisons and the categorization or stereotyping of people in terms of racial profile, is a rather odious concept which leads me to question your motivation.

[slava1stclass]

"1. The Title "Hero of the Soviet Union" is the highest degree of excellence and is conferred for personal or collective efforts involving a heroic feat for the Soviet State and Society."

I think this pretty much sums the debate up by acknowledging that it could be awarded to anyone who made a great contribution to the Soviet State or society in general.

Dave

To all:

In following the arguments and counter-arguments proffered in this thread, it appears to come down to one thing, namely the Soviets had a much wider/looser definition of what "heroic" meant within the context of their society. Their definition, however, runs counter to the general sense of what "heroic" means within most West European nations and the United States. So when a famous Russian ice skater is awarded the Hero of Russia for her on-ice feats, we shouldn't be surprised.

On another note, I, too am dismayed at the tone some of the sub-posts in this thread have taken. I'm happy to see the forum leadership has stepped in to address the matter.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Mr. Chairman,

GMIC is your property and you make the rules - no discussion about it.

So I will abolish all traces of humourism or ironic comparisons in my future postings at your platform.

Despite the fact, that my style of writing is not appreciated by all members of GMIC, I assume, that my previous contributions at your platform are of a certain phaleristic interest and somehow valuable contributions to your platform.

My motivation for participating at GMIC is obvious: You have established the most serious platform for collectors of Soviet awards concerning phaleristic aspects + documentation & research. I regard me as a serious collector of military history - Soviet Union + Yugoslavia - and I can easily proof it.

Mr. Chairman, may I deposit a big wish of mine:

Would it be possible, to install for the 2 Soviet & Eastern Bloc sections some sub-groups. Not so many as in the section concerning awards & materials of the period in german history usually called the "Third Reich" (I hope I named it in the "correct" way ), but it would be very helpful to have some structure in our 2 sub-groups. The collectors community for SU-awards is rather large and still growing. Many thanks for your support in advance.

Best regards from Vienna

Christian Zulus

Gentlemen

An interesting debate which has been brought to my attention. I would ask that members are a little more tolerate of other personal opinion, healthy polite debate is a good thing. But I dislike post that have a clear undertones of a political or indeed even potentially a racist interpretation. Mr Zulus you remarks are bordering on offensive and is a clear breach of gentlemanly etiquette. I do not like ?them and us? comparisons and the categorization or stereotyping of people in terms of racial profile, is a rather odious concept which leads me to question your motivation.

[Riley1965]

Wow DOC, I never relised any Germans got the HSU

Order of Victory

Order of Victory,

Fritz Schmenkel was awarded the Title HSU for his service as a Partisan in WWII. Unfortunately he was killed in WWII and was awarded his HSU Title on 6 October 1964. Erich Mielke earned his in secret. His award of the Title HSU was revealed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Walter Ulbricht, Sigmund J?hn & Erich Honecker were all DDR recipients.

Doc

[Ed_Haynes]

Many Germans were anti-Nazi, after all.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Doc Riley,

many thanks for putting the aspect to foreign - specially german - HSU-recipients and your additional postings about these group of people .

Richard Sorge, Stalin's most important spy, is another famous german HSU. He got the title 1965 posthumously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge

Walter Ulbricht, the "founder" of GDR (he looked like a clown and spoke in a rather strange and odd manner), got his HSU 1963. O.K., he was the inventor of the "Berlin Wall" ("Antifaschistischer Schutzwall"), but a HSL would have been more appropriate . BTW: Ulbricht is one of the most underrated figures in the history of Socialism. In fact he had rather interesting concepts in economic policy and social policy.

As you pointed out already, comrade Schmenkel was a meritorous Soviet partisan, who was executed in Minsk by the Nazis. I think, that he deserved his HSU, due to the regulations of this title.

Stasi-chief Mielke participated in the "Spanish Civil War", but that had been all. During WW II he lived in the underground, but was not a partisan at all. So I think, that he got his HSU not for deeds during the war, but for some successfull operations - there had been, due to Markus Wolf, a lot! - at the "Secret Front". As you wrote, he got his HSU in secret, which points to espionage.

Sigmund J?hn was the 1st german cosmonaut in space, so he got - like cosmonauts from India, Syria, Cuba, etc. - his Gold Star automatically.

I found no evidence, that Erich Honecker got a HSU. Honecker had been one of the "smallest lights" in the history of Socialism and if he would have really got a HSU (for what?), it would be a scandal .

Best regards

Christian

Let's not forget the German recipients of the Title "Hero of the Soviet Union"

Walter Ulbricht

Fritz Schmenkel

Sigmund J?hn

Erich Honecker

Erich Mielke

Doc

[JimZ]

Mmm... not sure if someone hinted at this earlier on....and I am not sure if I am catching this thread from the right angle....but the following statement is my personal view.

I do not feel that a Hero of the Soviet Union and Hero of Russia are one and the same thing. I admit that I do not know where the statutes may differ if they do at all....but as I see it, the system itself, the govenrment, the country and its values and mentality...and agendas.....everything is pretty much different from what it was pre 90s. Somewhere along the line, I feel that something was lost in the transition from CCCP to Russian Federation...maybe lost is the wrong word ... but there have been changes (some for the better and some for the worse). But I cannot help not to look at both titles with different feeling.

Of course, a recent Hero of Russia like Gennady Lyachin, captain of the Kursk awarded the title poshumously is hero material. To now have Russia give the same title to him as they gave to an athlete cannot be right!

Jim

(I got my flak jacket on...just in case!)

[Ed_Haynes]

I found no evidence, that Erich Honecker got a HSU. Honecker had been one of the "smallest lights" in the history of Socialism and if he would have really got a HSU (for what?), it would be a scandal .

Interesting. If Honecker got it, it smells of a Brezhnev-era ("You get ours, we get yours") swap. Citation/reference for the Honecker award, Mike? I find it interesting that, as far as Mongolia is concerned, neither Choibalsan nor Tsedenbal ever got the HSU, though Comrade Leonid got everything Mongolian that wasn't nailed down, even an award specially created JUST FOR HIM (he must have loved THAT).

[Riley1965]

Interesting. If Honecker got it, it smells of a Brezhnev-era ("You get ours, we get yours") swap. Citation/reference for the Honecker award, Mike? I find it interesting that, as far as Mongolia is concerned, neither Choibalsan nor Tsedenbal ever got the HSU, though Comrade Leonid got everything Mongolian that wasn't nailed down, even an award specially created JUST FOR HIM (he must have loved THAT).

Ed and All,

I am trying to confirm Honecker's HSU. There are those that say he earned it and some that cast doubt on his award. A puzzle I've been working on. I'll share my findings. As for Mongolia, Ed I agree that both Choibalsan & Tsedenbalat should have received the Title HSU. To me it shows the manner in which the Soviet hierarchy felt about Mongolian leaders.

Doc

[Dolf]

I find it interesting that, as far as Mongolia is concerned, neither Choibalsan nor Tsedenbal ever got the HSU, though Comrade Leonid got everything Mongolian that wasn't nailed down, even an award specially created JUST FOR HIM (he must have loved THAT).

And I'm sure Choibalsan and even Tsedenbal did more for the former USSR and socialism than Brezhnev ever did for Mongolia (not to mention he was a disaster for USSR itself!).

Maybe he was a Medals collector

Dolf

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Ed,

you are right: Brezhnev was completly mad about orders + Hero titles. He received so many orders and Gold Stars (4x HSU, 1x HSL, +++ all the Stars from the "friendly nations"), that he would have needed about 3 (three) uniforms to wear them at once. It is almost impossible to wear Brezhnev's 5 Stars in one row .

Does anyone have a photograph of the late Brezhnev wearing all the 5 stars?

As Dolf mentioned, comrade Brezhnev was THE medal collector. Imagine the market value of his (complete) collection . If he would be still alive, he would be the No. 1 in our collectors community .

It might have been a "Gold-Star-Swap" between CCCP & GDR, but I think, that Mr. Honecker never dared to wear his HSU in public, if he would have received one.

Many thanks Doc, that you will do some investigation into the topic: Honecker & HSU.

Best regards

Christian

Interesting. If Honecker got it, it smells of a Brezhnev-era ("You get ours, we get yours") swap. Citation/reference for the Honecker award, Mike? I find it interesting that, as far as Mongolia is concerned, neither Choibalsan nor Tsedenbal ever got the HSU, though Comrade Leonid got everything Mongolian that wasn't nailed down, even an award specially created JUST FOR HIM (he must have loved THAT).