Soviet Soviet-Mongolian Group

[Ed_Haynes]

And reverse.

Help me understand, please.

[Paul L Murphy]

Ed,

Reading down the awards they are Red Star, Medal for Military Service (no number), Red Banner, Red Star, Red Banner, Red Star, Medal for Victory against Germany, Medal for Capture of Berlin, Medal for 30th anniversary of Armed Forces, Medal for Liberation of Prague. I am nor totally sure on the last three medals but the others are certain.

Cheers,

Paul

[Alfred]

The medals are:

Red Star - 1.810.893

Medal for Military Service - (no number)

Red Banner - 385.x24

Red Star - 3.309.251

Red Banner - 454.034

Red Star - 3.494.726

Medal for Victory against Germany - (no number)

Medal for Capture of Berlin - (no number)

Medal for 30th anniversary of Armed Forces - (no number)

Medal for Liberation of Prague - (no number)

Then names in the Order book and the research name are different Mikhail Ivanovitch Guzov and Alexander Michailovitsch Schevarev

The only common medal seems to be the Red Banner, but I am not sure if the number of the Red Banner is right (see picture)

The number in the Order books looks like a 7, the number in the award card looks like a 4.

What number is on the backside of the Red Banner xxx.124 or xxx.724? Maybe wrong research ?

Maybe you could post a picture of then backside of the Red Banner?

regards

Andreas

Edited December 19, 2006 by Alfred

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, Alfred!

You have sent me from sickbed to the bank to retrieve the group. The information I had (and what I sent to the researcher) was based on bad pre-in-hand scans.

On checking, the Red Banner is, indeed, 385724

Back to the drawing board, back to the researcher!!

Watch this space.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

Re-research requested.

Correct serial numbers, just to keep the record straight:

Red Banner 385724

Red Star 1923384

Red Star 3000629

Military Merit Medal 1458581

Victory Germany

Victory Japan

Mongolian "We Won" 54271

[Alfred]

So, there is still hope, that all turns to an good end.

[Guest Rick Research]

That was a nasty shocker!!!!!! I suggest sending along the Orders Book number as well, and perhaps that helps, since the filing is apparently (????) all separately done but by anything that had a number on it. Also, did you only request the Red Banner or all of 'em? I'd ask for the 1st wartime Red Star, but the second one and the Red Banner are surely long service awards so will probably only be pages from a mass Ukaz bestowal.

Drat-- the Wrong Fighter Pilot Guy had a fantastic career too!!!! His all but PAIRED Red Stars and Red Banners from 1951 and 1955 (with a 15 years long service REd Star in '56 meaning those 4 were most certainly NOT long services ) is very very interesting indeed.

[Ed_Haynes]

That was a nasty shocker!!!!!! I suggest sending along the Orders Book number as well, and perhaps that helps, since the filing is apparently (????) all separately done but by anything that had a number on it. Also, did you only request the Red Banner or all of 'em? I'd ask for the 1st wartime Red Star, but the second one and the Red Banner are surely long service awards so will probably only be pages from a mass Ukaz bestowal.

Drat-- the Wrong Fighter Pilot Guy had a fantastic career too!!!! His all but PAIRED Red Stars and Red Banners from 1951 and 1955 (with a 15 years long service REd Star in '56 meaning those 4 were most certainly NOT long services ) is very very interesting indeed.

Well, Rick, it may not be so bad. As discussed above, the initial research request was submitted based on post-purchase but pre-custody information. And two of the serial numbers transmitted were wrong. Comrade Research started with the record card based on the RB, it came up mis-matched, and he stopped there.

I have now resubmitted, sending not only a list (corrected) but scans or relevant document pages (not that he can do much on the Mongol gong). And I always ask for an EVERYTHING OF EVERYTHING research request, soup to nuts. Frankly, even long service citations often contain interesting career details. (Must dig out and post a long service RS to a barkeep that I don't think I have ever put up here....)

As they say: Watch this space.

[Stogieman]

When I first started following this, I did not realize it was a group that originated from me. The medal bar threw me as the medals were loose when I had them. I'll be very interested to see how it turns out. The group originally came from the Admin of the Soviet Awards Forum!

[Bryan]

When I first started following this, I did not realize it was a group that originated from me. The medal bar threw me as the medals were loose when I had them.

Fpr me it's a crime for a collector to put a group of loose medals on a medal bar or to "reribbon" your original medals!

[Ed_Haynes]

When I first started following this, I did not realize it was a group that originated from me. The medal bar threw me as the medals were loose when I had them. I'll be very interested to see how it turns out. The group originally came from the Admin of the Soviet Awards Forum!

There's no medal bar, they are loose. Just scanned in proper fashion.

[Ed_Haynes]

Fpr me it's a crime for a collector to put a group of loose medals on a medal bar or to "reribbon" your original medals!

Agreed, and I am innocent.

[Stogieman]

My apologies Ed, I certainly didn't mean the comment as an indictment, only as an observation. I had been asked if this group had come from me from a third party and having looked quickly said no as the bar looked like a one-piece.

(One of these days you have to teach me how to do that, i have so far been unable to duplicate your efforts!)

In any event, I think we can all agree that Ed is a fastidious, conscientious preserver of the history he watches over.

[Bryan]

Agreed, and I am innocent.

I never thought you would have done something like this. I appreciate your contribution to the hobby and the way that you are preserving your awards by researching everything.

[NavyFCO]

Drat-- the Wrong Fighter Pilot Guy had a fantastic career too!!!! His all but PAIRED Red Stars and Red Banners from 1951 and 1955 (with a 15 years long service REd Star in '56 meaning those 4 were most certainly NOT long services

Too bad Ed didn't get the citations... I bet that those additional awards were for flight time in night/inclement weather. I've been noticing a trend of these lately!

Dave

[NavyFCO]

I believe the group is good. It's missing an order of Lenin, however. Here's his award card with the awards listed up to his Red Star. As you can see, the numbers match those in the document.

Dave

[NavyFCO]

Here's his long service award card, which I have never seen before now. What I don't know is if he actually received the Lenin as his 25 years fell in January 1957... it is marked that he did though, as I can understand it. Thoughts?

Dave

[Gerd Becker]

Excellent! Congrats, Ed. Happy, it turned out legit

Dave, thats an interesting style of Award Card! I have never seen that one before.

[Stogieman]

So my only question is...... Would his Lenin have come with another award booklet? Or, would he have been issued a new booklet with the Lenin and all these earlier awards in it?

[NavyFCO]

So my only question is...... Would his Lenin have come with another award booklet? Or, would he have been issued a new booklet with the Lenin and all these earlier awards in it?

I ASSUME (and this is just an assumption) that if it was awarded, it was awarded with another award booklet, as it was never put in the earlier document. What's odd though is that neither the Lenin nor the Red Banner appear on the award card. And I don't think that he would have been eligible for a Lenin in January 1957 (I would have thought it would have been brought forward to December 1956.) That's why I think he might not have gotten it, but I'm at a loss at this one. The page is filled out as though he did... but perhaps they were expecting him to be awarded it, and then when the award criteria changed the entry was never completely crossed out (part of it was though)? Here's a close-up of the card. Perhaps MONDVOR or someone more intimiately familiar with the writing could see something there that I'm missing in my reading of it.

An interesting aside is that the next award for long service was the Red Banner, following the Lenin, being awarded somewhere around 30 years or so.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Fascinating! Thanks, Dave. I have requested full research, so . . . ???

[Guest Rick Research]

No Lenin.

I'd say the first Award Record Card is so full in 1946 that another which hasn't been copied followed later. The 1950 Red Star is lost as if under the signature from 4 years earlier.

The EXTREMELY interesting "long service" card shows "date of award" written or stamped in for his MMM, ORS, and ORB. The Lenin is filled out "in anticipation" but not stamped-- so not issued.

Service records might show if he was discharged just before they had to give him one. I'm taking that "as of May 1957" entry there as an ANTICIPATORY "turn in your lists for eligibility in advance" situation for the mass Ukaz type awards. See how it was SUBMITTED on 21 January 1957?

[NavyFCO]

Fascinating! Thanks, Dave. I have requested full research, so . . . ???

Ed, you should be able to find out more when the research comes back on it. As for this, I did this research myself as I was curious about the group and this is what one does for friends.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Ed, you should be able to find out more when the research comes back on it. As for this, I did this research myself as I was curious about the group and this is what one does for friends.

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

Bit small for my tired eyes, but it looks like it says he was in reserves 1948-50, which might have slightly delayed the 15 Red Star. But apparently that time and his not counted compulsory service (?) 1930-32 must have THEN been applied to get a "20" Red banner in 1952.

So, you want the commands and ranks at each of those entries?

Born 1910, White Russian. Red Army since February 1934, CPSU since 1939....