Soviet Red Banner Questions...

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for what has turned into a unique, interesting and helpful thread. My Soviet collecting is something of a sideline (playing second to Imperial German orders and decorations) and as such, my knowledge is extremely limited - so much to learn!

With regard to annual gatherings, though, I would like to add my two cents. Having attended 26 of the past 27 OMSA Conventions, I recommend this one very highly. The attendance of Soviet collectors and dealers has been on the increase for a number of years to the point where they now constitute a significant presence. Also, compared to the others, OMSA consistently presents an environment which encourages study and exchanges of knowledge,

Having attended something like 16 of the last 17 MAX Shows, I have given up, I?ll not be going this year. Sure, it?s basically 3rd Reich; but it always has been, that?s what it was built around. The problem, to me, is that what is left after the 3rd Reich material has digressed into a second rate garage sale; as I?ve said before, I am now on a first name basis with Charlie Snyder?s shrunken heads. It would seem that as the MAX Show has declined, The SOS has both grown and improved. It?s all there and there is always lots of interesting material that is beyond my own immediate interests.

Again, thank you all for a great thread,

Wild Card

Edited September 14, 2006 by Wild Card

[Riley1965]

I'll second that. This year was my first OMSA Convention. I met so many of the people and sellers I deal with. I also entered a Soviet display in the exhibit and walked away with a bronze medal for my efforts. I will continue to enter Soviet exhibits there. Needless to say...I HAD FUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!

Doc

[order_of_victory]

Talking militaia shows does any one know a good militaria show in th UK/Ireland

Order of Victory

[JimZ]

I was admiring the group of 5 ORBs on another thread when I had this question I have been meaning to ask in a whole. I guess this is the right place. It seems that 6th, 7th and 8th awards of the redbanners do exist (from what i read in the red bible). Apart from of course probably never being up for sale and costing an absolute bomb if they were, my questions are as follows: Who were the recipients of these high number ORBs and were these just service awards? PS's Echoes of War covers #5 awards...mostly service!......what about higher awards which i suppose would have come about after? Anyone can throw any light on this for me pls. Thanks.

Jim

[JimZ]

On another note but still speaking of red banners:

[attachmentid=55579]

Would anyone agree that the torch flame, top of the flagpole and the hammer and sickle look wrong on this piece or is it just my eyes that have gone wrong from staring too much at my screen!!

Jim

[Gerd Becker]

Jim,

i think, the highest issued numbered ORB was a 6th award. I can see nothing suspicous so far on your Red Banner, lets see the reverse. Is that a mirror reverse?

Gerd

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=55764]

Its not mine Gerd. I was just watching it and studying it like I find myself doing far too often! However I still do not like the torch - if you look closely and compare it to other documented awards the flames look rather different to me...narrower. But as usual, one may end up nit picking on the little details which scream fake/repro when a glimpse of the whole of the order may be screaming louder - "original!" And of course....nothing will ever beat handling the piece!!!

With all the fakes at hand I really believe that I have started to nitpick excessively and have become real choosy and I get the feeling that more often than not this backfires. I protect myself from buying 5 fakes and miss out on x originals! I have been collecting Russian medals for almost 17 years now and what once seemed certainties are fast becoming very grey areas! And I do not think it will get any better!

Re high #ed red banners I would love feedback. Its an area where I definetely need some enlightenment!

Regards,

Jim

[Mondvor]

This Red Banner is a fake.

[Gerd Becker]

I agree with Andrei, its a fake. Number removed and new engraved. Wrong mint mark for this s/n-range. I rarely look at the obverse details anymore, but more on the reverse, the mint mark and serialnumber.

Jim, better be choosy than sorry

I just spoke on the phone with another collector and we agreed, that nothing beats handling a piece and you can?t be sure anymore just from a picture. I just started 3 years ago with soviet, i collected German imperial miniatures before that. But i was very lucky to have some great helpful collectors at my side and i studied everything about variations, i could find. So i was luckily able to avoid any fakes in my collection so far. At least i hope so...

Gerd

[Mondvor]

Gerd, this RB has never had original serial number. It was made as a fake from the beginning.

I've seen many of those with a same style fake mintmark. Some pictures...

[Mondvor]

And more...

[JimZ]

Thanks Gerd and Andrei. Somebody paid around 400 bucks for that piece and seller was guaranteeing as original! Sure....a guarantee is to be taken at face value unless it comes from someone reputable or unless it implies a full money back guarantee with no questions asked if piece is found to be original or not. For the buyers sake I hope he had the latter and not only the former guarantee!!!!!

So please explain to me.... the piece tries to portray itself as what should be a type 2 var 2 which falls within observed ranges 21414 and 82365 (I tried to attribute it as closely as per the PMD classification) - Looking closely at the mintmark, the M sees to be written differently could imply that the actual lettering on the mintmark is different ....more like the type 3? Is that observation correct? The serial numbering is engraved in an unsual manner I agree but what are the chances that these hand engraved pieces could vary? The reverse does looks highly polished and the welding not the prettiest around....

Also would you think that a piece like this would be manufactured from scratch or is it a butchered type 3 as you hint at the serial number being removed and replaced.....hence suspension ring chopped off and screw soldered on...... sounds almost like a sex change...no murder!!! I still hate that torch and I still cannot track it to another known variation....

Is there a fake database thread around for russian pieces like there are in other sections? It seems that although my one question was answered I have another 10!!

My regards,

Jim

[JimZ]

Erm...... before I could even type my next set of queries you replied Andrei! WOW!!

[JimZ]

The quality of the mint marks look slightly different between 3 pieces....but they all got the same ugly torch flame. Which now explains why I could not match it to documented variation anywhere. Its impressive to see so many around and really makes one wonder.......

Jim

[Gerd Becker]

Jim,

take a look on Andrei?s website:

www.narod.mondvor.ru

Its very extensive and describes the variations in great detail. Even if you can?t speak russian, its understandable.

Andrei, some scary fakes. The first one has the obvious fake enamel, but the other two are better.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Gerd Becker

[JimZ]

Thanks Gerd. In fact I had already reviewed Andrei's site prior to posting when I was trying to match the obverse. But I should give the site a much more detailed look in particular with regards to mint marks vs serial numbering....that's my homework for this week!

From what you mentioned, I am concluding that I put too much focus and effort looking at the obverse of this medal (which of course still works) when the reverse is probably less complicated to read and tells the story much faster if you know what to look for!!!

[Mondvor]

Jim,

take a look on Andrei?s website:

www.narod.mondvor.ru

Its very extensive and describes the variations in great detail. Even if you can?t speak russian, its understandable.

Andrei, some scary fakes. The first one has the obvious fake enamel, but the other two are better.

Gerd, thanks for advertising my website

But the address is slightly different - http://mondvor.narod.ru

It is VERY slow, and in Russian, but pictures and serial number ranges should be understandable to anyone...

[Gerd Becker]

Jim, at least for me its easier to distinguish between the variations over the reverse,but it could very well be, that others can distinguish them by the obverse. But the serialnumber-ranges had very distinctive mint-marks and the information to this is available on Andrei?s website.

Andrei, you are welcome. I knew, i should have just copy&pasted it I have mirrored your website on my harddisk, that way the time to load is minimal. I can recommend the program WebSpider 2 for this job.

Gerd

[Bryan]

Andrei, some scary fakes. The first one has the obvious fake enamel, but the other two are better.

Maybe not Gerd. The first one was scanned so you can better see the color of the enamel, but the 2 others are photographed, which hide a lot of details! That is my opinion.

Edited October 3, 2006 by Soviet

[JimZ]

[attachmentid=56145][attachmentid=56143][attachmentid=56144]

I was out on patrol and I've come across the above..... alas I cannot bring larger photos or a focussed photo of the '3rd award'. Serial numbers 10764 for the 3rd award and 926 for the 4th award....so far sounds good. What about the fact that 926 (#4) can date anywhere between 1944 and 1948 (overlapping of serial nos) whilst 10764 (#3) is probably a 1970s award..... is my logic right? Does that rip the booklet apart? Now to look at the medals without much detail....does the patination look terrible. Mint marks... Andrey? .... Gerd? .... Comments? I look at the obverse and I cannot say that I particularly like the shape of the star, the torch head and flame and especially the shape of the suspension ring! Nor do I like centre 'bead' under the number which seems too long. Then again, I was denied larger and different pics and once again....this is merely observation regrettably and not hands on examination!

Now as a result of all this I have a query that I would like a reply to......When a soldier was issued an 'Ordenskaya Kneeshka' I suppose he kept this all along and it was usual practice to update this booklet as the soldier receieved new orders or numbered medals. Is that the case? Technically, is it feasable to say that a soldier working starting his career in the war, could have an Order booklet issued for his first red star or bravery medal and then proceed into a 20 something year career in the Red Army with the same Order Booklet being updated with any subsequent numbered awards that might have been awarded to him......

Regards!

Jim

[Bryan]

These were identified as fakes on an other forum. In the the orderbook only the first two entries are original.

And the s/n range from the "3" would've had a mint mark in two lines, and the "4" a large curved down mint mark.

[Alfred]

Now as a result of all this I have a query that I would like a reply to......When a soldier was issued an 'Ordenskaya Kneeshka' I suppose he kept this all along and it was usual practice to update this booklet as the soldier receieved new orders or numbered medals. Is that the case? Technically, is it feasable to say that a soldier working starting his career in the war, could have an Order booklet issued for his first red star or bravery medal and then proceed into a 20 something year career in the Red Army with the same Order Booklet being updated with any subsequent numbered awards that might have been awarded to him......

Hello Jim,

I try to answer your question. To my mind, there is no general answer to your question. Yes, there could be the case that an order book was updated in the proceed of time.

See the attached example. The three long Servive awards (Military Merit Medal, Red Star and Red Banner) were added later after the oder book was issued. The Red Banner was 9 years later awarded as the order book was issued.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1331

But there could also be the case that there were more than one oder book. I have a Order of Glory and Valor group with two oder books. The document for the Valor medal was filled out later as the Glory order book. According to the serial number and research he got the Valor medal first. Maybe he had till the

order book was filled out his temporary award certificate for the valor medal.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7187

So many things are possible.

regards

Andreas

[JimZ]

Thanks Andreas

So technically an order book can be issued in 1945 and have orders awarded even so many years later. That is interesting from the point of view that fakers can wreak havoc on the order books if they have an idea of the serial number sequencing of orders and medals. Which will in turn of course make it even harder for us collectors to decide between the genuine group + award document and the 'fabricated' group + tampered booklet!! Of course the proof of this cake will be in the researching! But sometimes it may be too late to do anything at all about it...unless one has a lifetime guarantee/refund should that group prove to be fake!

Jim

PS. On this note I would like to start a new thread called "Fake Orders and medals database" to compliment the "Fake booklets" thread. I hope this idea can take off and perhaps, in this way, have an in house reference of what the market is throwing at us.

[JimZ]

These were identified as fakes on an other forum. In the the orderbook only the first two entries are original.

And the s/n range from the "3" would've had a mint mark in two lines, and the "4" a large curved down mint mark.

For the sake of completeness, the ORBs in post #45 sold for the handsome price of USD 762. That's gotta hurt even if this is a mere fraction of what an original 3rd and 4th award would cost (especially if accompanied by their order book)!!!

Jim

[Dolf]

For the sake of completeness, the ORBs in post #45 sold for the handsome price of USD 762. That's gotta hurt even if this is a mere fraction of what an original 3rd and 4th award would cost (especially if accompanied by their order book)!!!

Jim

Jim,

Both the #3 AND the #4 sold for $762.00USD?

Well, indeed far below the average price for such pieces!

An original ORB #3 alone (without the Doc) is now for sale for... $1,720.00USD!

And an original #4 with the Doc was sold not long ago for... $4,000.00USD!

And these from one of the cheapest dealers I know! They can sell for quite more from other dealers!

So my obvious conclusion is that no collector with let's say an average knowledge about these awards have bidded on those pieces shown above, and my guess is that only the usual "ignorant-let's-buy-verything-cause-it's-cheap-even-thought-I-know-nothing-about-these-but-I-might-be-able-to-resale-them-later-with-lots-of-profit" kind of people pay that (still high price for a fake!) money for stuff that those people who are members of this and other Forums would never bid on before asking to the experts on these Forums, if not 100% sure about their authenticity!

After all it would only require checking the PMD's book and the Mondvor site, to come to the conclusion that these are obvious fakes!

I guess some people just don't know what to do with their money!

Or maybe some may know those are fakes, but still buy them anyway with the intention to resale them later hoping to make some profit!

Just my two kopecks,

Dolf