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Order of the Patriotic War 2cl

Gentlemen,

the only duplicate award I have in my collection is a OPW 2cl T2 "starback" with the s/n. 46.653 with a cyrillic "d" at the lower gun shaft at the av. The condition of the order is 10/10 - almost mint, but with traces of nice patina.

Sorry ...., no photograph - my scanner can only tackle with rather flat items :blush: .

Best regards

Christian Zulus

Edited by Christian Zulus
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Dan, you have probably seen this one, but though....

Order of the Red Star Nr. 1.781.725 Duplicate with cyrillic "D" stamped under the serialnumber. I was told, most of these are pieces, which had the serialnumber erased, the back was sand blasted again and the new serialnumber was stamped. This piece seems to support this theory.

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I've owned a good number of duplicate awards over the years ranging from a Glory 1st and Glory 3rd to several Lenins, a Red Banner, several Red Stars, etc. I am always wary of supposed duplicate awards though, particularly with the medals "For Valor" and "For Military Merit."

Why am I cautious with these two? Because post-War issues of these medals were unnumbered, and thus has supplied thousands of "blanks" for unscrupulous sellers with a metal numbering kit and a Cyrillic "D" stamp to make all of the "duplicate" issue medals that they want. There is one particular seller on eBay who sells many of this kind of "duplicate" award - even though we all know that his groups (and many of his awards) are outright fakes. I'm not saying that these duplicate awards didn't exist. However, I think there are probably more fakes of these awards as duplicates out there today than there are real ones. Caveat emptor...

All of the awards I owned that were duplicates were previously unnumbered awards that had been numbered either by hand engraving or by stamped numbers. None of them had been previously numbered, then erased, then renumbered.

For about the first ten years that I collected Soviet awards, any award that had a serial number erased and then replaced was considered to have been tinkered with or messed with. I returned at least three or four nice groups to sellers because one (or more) award serial numbers had been erased and replaced. However, about three-four years ago, someone decided that these awards were okay and legitimate re-numbered duplicates. I am still not certain what caused this revelation, but every dealer I know of (even the most reputable ones) have sold these awards with scratched out or removed serial numbers and new serial numbers added as "legitimate" replacement or duplicate awards.

I am not really all that comfortable with "duplicates" unless it was a previously unissued numbered award (like a Lenin or Red Banner) that had never been numbered, and then the new number was added on it at a later time. These awards are not all that uncommon and they do exist out there. I am not comfortable with the legitimacy most people have given awards with erased and then replaced serial numbers. I always wonder why the Mint would do that when they undoubtedly had stocks of original, unnumbered awards that they could use as replacements (and which they did use, as is evidenced by many legitimate duplicates that I have seen and owned.)

I am especially curious why the Mint so crudely erased some serial numbers (like with a rough grinding wheel) and then crudely re-engraved serial numbers on some supposedly "legitimate" duplicates when at the same time the same Mint carefully removed some serial numbers, re-sand blasted and pebbled the revese, and carefully re-stamped some serial numbers. At the same time, the same Mint simply issued unnumbered original award with the number stamped on them. Some very curious food for thought...

My two cents...

Dave

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Very interesting Dave! Indeed food for thought! I am not keen on duplicate awards myself and I much prefer a lower serial number to a marked duplicate. My preference of course.....but in my book, adding a cyrillic D onto a medal is so much easier than fudging the serial number!

My question - whereas I am aware of numbered awards being issued in duplicate, I am not aware of campaign medals ever being marked as duplicates? Is it something that I have not yet come across ..... or am I right in thinking that this may be added to make that Prague medal more desirable!

Jim

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Hi usairforce,

Thank you for your post. I must admit that I am woefully uneducated when it comes to Soviet awards. At the same time, I have to say that while I have seen, either pictures of or first hand, numerous examples of duplicate awards, your Prague medal is the first example of a liberation medal duplicate that I have ever seen. For that matter, I don?t recall ever having seen a duplicate of any of the defense medals either.

Very interesting, thank you again for the post.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

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I have never heard of or seen a Duplicate Soviet Campaign medal (with Cyrillic D)!! For re-issues the recipient generally recieved a variation 3 which has a heavy gold wash. This is the ONLY type of duplicate Campaign Medals (Defense, Capture, Liberation or Victory Over) I know of.

:beer: Doc

Edited by Riley1965
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Mike is right. Type 3 with the heavy gold wash was issued for late awards and I assume as replacements for lost medals or re-issues as the case might be. There is no reason at all to stamp a duplicate mark on a medal that is not serial numbered. I cannot follow the logic on that at all.

I usually pronounce myself very boldly when I am convinced that something is a fake or has been tampered with. Of course I do not expect to have seen it all .... but this does remains the first time I have come across a campaign medal marked as "D"... and my gut feeling says it has been tampered. Of course please feel free to disagree with my assessment. However, if anybody does know better kindly enlighten me/us!

Regards,

Jim

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Its impossible to be certain about Duplicate Awards, you are completely on your own, as there are most different opinions, how one should look like. One experienced collector says this, another says that.

I?m comfortable with my Red Star. The alteration is done very well and the "D" sign is the accepted font. Why should someone fake a number this high (if not to add a missing award to a group)?

Dave, a lot of things probably come to light, now that the dealers can?t chose anymore from the top-stuff. Which of these new discoveries are real and which are just invented to sell their goods, will be hard to find out, i guess.

Interesting arguments and though food for thought, gentlemen.

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Again, There are NO Official Campaign Medals with the cyrillic D. Duplicates are seen in Orders etc. but NOT in "Defense, Capture, Liberation or Victory Over" Campaign Medals. The recipient would have received the 3rd variation which has a heavy gold wash. I'm sorry, but somone has pulled a nasty trick on you with your Prague Medal :( I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that is the sad fact.

:beer: Doc

Edited by Riley1965
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I do not agree with your point of view.This is not seen, but it is not tampered .

Maybe I was not firm enough when I referred to my "gut feeling". So I will do it more firmly now as its indeed better leave no room for doubt.

To the best of my knowledge and experience collecting Russian medals I have never come across a campaign or unnumbererd medal that was marked as a duplicate. I have not come across any refererences to such a duplicate medal. I have never discussed such an issue with fellow collectors becasue of the fact that such a medal does not officially exist. As a result I would not buy any such campaign medal as it is my firm belief that it has been tampered with.

In any case, there is no logic behind mints marking a medal that has no serial number with a "D". Also, and very sadly, such a duplicate mark is one of the easiest marks to fake with the right tools.

Jim

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USAIRFORCE,

One flyboy to another... I am sorry to tell you that your Prague medal is not a duplicate. The USSR used Variation 3's for re-issue or lost award They never used the Cyrillic D on ANY Campaign Medals. I'm sorry my friend but that is the whole story plain and simple. :(

Believe me, I wish I had better news for you.

:beer: Doc

Edited by Riley1965
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Here are two pictures with duplicat Budapest and Vienna medals.

As it is said before: They are so easy to fake.

To my mind, the D add no more value to the city medals, so I make a forgo around this medals.

If they are genuiene or fake.

regards

Andreas

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