double rows ribbon bars

[Claudio]

Dear forumites:

My brother found on the net (from an old online catalogue) a quite interesting double row bar (second from the top) with a description:

Oberst von Gersdorff diente im Leibzug Seiner Majest?t des Kaisers Wilhelm II., K?nig von Preussen

The first one it's mine but still without name. Since the combination looks very similar, is it possible that 1st double row bar was from an officer who served with Oberst von Gersdorff? Especially the combination of the foreign awards looks very similar. What do you think?

Maybe someone has interesting info to share about Oberst von Gersdorff.

Thank you in advance for looking into it.

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited November 13, 2006 by Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

You didn't get the medal bar (sold separately ) when they appeared on eBay years ago?

[attachmentid=60769]

at least this time we KNOW which classes those ribbons represent.

Unfortunately with (E) officers, they were invisible during the First War, are not in any Weimar-era Rank Lists, and so remain invisible in the Second War if names are lost.

Taking a quick look at the BZ3bXmE and SA3aX rolls, "von Gersdorff" appears on both as no 1st name, Hptm iG on one and Hptm iG on Staff of the Commander of Field Railways on the other-- so I doubt anything will be conclusive sidetracked (if you will allow the railways pun) on HIM.

Claudio's guy was a Hauptmann or Rittmeister by 1918 (SA3aX) but had received his Ernestine House Order (Knight 2nd X) while still an Oberleutnant or even a Leutnant. The Spanish and Belgian Orders would presumably have been from before the war in 1914, although the Italian and Hungarian ones must be from the 1930s-WW2. And yet he was a very YOUNG Captain, because only Wehrmacht 12, so less than 18 years real service in when those stopped being handed out when the Second War started.

On Claudio's bar the ribbons from Bulgaria may suggest a connecxtion with Saxe-Coburg, given the dynastic connection with Bulgaria and that Ernestine. The heavy accumulation of Bulgarian and Turkish suggests to me a staff officer on the Greek front, someplace like that.

I well remember the medal bar and ribbon bar when they came up for sale. had no luck with the Belgian and Spanish ribbons then, but that was before I had all three Ernestine rolls.

This one will be identifiable from the combination, but it will take a lot of time.

Have faith-- but don't hold your breath!!!!

[Claudio]

Hi Rick,

You remember it correctly; the medal bar appeared on German Ebay with two ribbon bars. I bid on everything but unfortunately not enough. Today I would offer much more for such a group.

It was really a pity that the whole lot was sold separately.

Ciao,

Claudio

P.S.: I have also a (tiny) picture of the back of the medal bar; typical Godet construction after 1935.

[Dave Danner]

Presumably "sold separately" also applies to the other decorations represented on the ribbon bar but not on that medal bar. Some are not there because they are pre-war (the KVK, most obviously), but the others you can't tell.

The Hungarian Order of Merit is on the statute ribbon, so may have been a 1930s peacetime award. By the device and since it isn't on the ribbon bar, it was likely a pinback cross.

The Bulgarian St. Alexander, also not on the ribbon bar, was either a WW2 award or a III.Class (Commander's Cross), or both. As for the other Bulgarian bravery order ribbon, that could be a pinback Military Order for Bravery.

The pinback Turkish War Medal, of course, also must have been "sold separately" at some point.

I think both of the other two are Spanish - no Italian ones - two Military Merit Crosses, one con distintivo rojo and one con distintivo blanco, and also presumably "sold separately".

[Claudio]

Well, the worst part was that I asked the seller if he knew the name of that ribbon bar owner. He wrote me back and confirmed me that he knoew the officer's name but for reason of confidentiality he couldn't tell me. He just stated that it came from a family with a long military tradition and added that this family had several senior officers/generals(???).

Ciao,

Claudio

[Glenn J]

I am going to take an educated guess at Hans Henning von Gersdorff formerly of the 3. Garde-Regiment zu Fu? and in 1914 a Leutnant in Garde-Maschinengewehr-Abteilung Nr. 2

Leutnant: 18.8.06 H3h

Oberleutnant: 28.11.14

Hauptmann: 27.1.16 H

The hand-written notes in my copy of the 3. Garde-Regiment zu Fu? Offizier-Stammliste show him to have been the Adjutant to GFM. von Mackensen and a date of death of 8.5.1965. The Army list of 1939 shows this officer as a Major (E) with an RDA of 1.4.34 (46) on the staff of the II. Armeekorps in the position of 2. Adjutant to GFM. von Mackensen. He rose to the rank of Oberst with an RDA of 1.3.42 (65).

All the other candidates appear to me to be too old, too young or too dead!

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

Too young, too old, or too dead indeed!

Although there is NO notation for General Staff duty for him in the Honor Rank List, NOBODY else CAN fit.

That and the FREAKISH entry to "H v Gersdorff" from the Milit?r Wochenblatt of 18.4.18 for a RAO4X conclusively identify the

NON-Claudio ribbon bar.

Wherever it may now be.

[Deruelle]

Interresting ribbon bar Claudio. Can you tell me if the oak leaves to Z?hringen medal are in silver of in gold. If it is in silver, can you make a close up please. Thanks a lot. Great ribbon bars . It's always a shame when a seller try to sell some items separatly and not in ght whole group. I can't understand. They want money, money money. That's all . I hope that one day you can buy it to recreate the group.

Regards

Christophe

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Guys,

I THINK, this v.Gersdorff bar is legit. I also found him with a WF3aX in the "nearly-ready-for-printing-W?rttemberg Roll".

Best regards

Daniel

Interresting ribbon bar Claudio. Can you tell me if the oak leaves to Z?hringen medal are in silver of in gold. If it is in silver, can you make a close up please. Thanks a lot. Great ribbon bars . It's always a shame when a seller try to sell some items separatly and not in ght whole group. I can't understand. They want money, money money. That's all . I hope that one day you can buy it to recreate the group.

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

You just got the wrong ribbon bar, Claudio.

The OTHER one is absolutely 100% ID'd now!!!!