Stolen Valor Act passes Congress

[Ed_Haynes]

As one of their last acts as they were being escorted off the premises, the outgoing Congress has passed the idiotic "Stolen Valor Act". In addition to dealing decisively with the non-problem of pathethic pretenders to awards, the law will apparently make virtually any trade in US gallantry awards illegal within the United States.

The President will, of course, be signing this piece of imbecile garbage into law as soon as possible.

It seems likely this this will virtually terminate the collecting of US awards within the USA. Overseas collectors may anticipate some bargains real soon now.

Happy I don't collect or study US awards.

[DutchBoy]

One word: Moronic!

To think that this law will have any useful purpose is insane. And what will be the penalty for violating this law??

On second thought, maybe this is a clever ploy by the Drug Enforcement Agency to get drug dealers to abandon their current occupations and go to the less bad but equally illegal awards trade. I can picture the scene now:

Drug-turned-awards dealer opens his coat and goes: "Psst! Hey man, wanna score some Silver Stars??"

And then you hear some radio talk in the distance: "He said the magic words: MOVE IN AND APPREHEND SUSPECT!!"

That will make one heck of a segment on "Cops!"

SERIOUSLY

[Paul L Murphy]

This is amazing ! All that will happen is that collecting will be driven underground, as in Russia, and it will be even more difficult for people to get access to decent information, learn from experienced collectors, and access good quality material. But of course none of that will hold any importance for the muppets who drafted the law.

How do US collectors intend to react ?

[Ed_Haynes]

How do US collectors intend to react ?

That, sir, is a very good question. There are, I think, at least two major issues before the OMSA now. It isn't clear to me

1) what the OMSA officers really did to try to stop this and

2) what they intend to do now.

I am exploring how the OMSA nomination process works.

[Paul L Murphy]

A large chunk of the OMSA's raison d'etre is about to disappear. In fact, it is about to become a criminal offence ! As an OMSA member I obviously find that disappointing, however as a non-American there was precious little I could do to persuade any congressman of the stupidity of the act. All a great pity.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Paul L Murphy

[JimZ]

Why is it the "stolen valor" act?

I'd understand someone buying medals and wearing them and passing them off as his own decorations. That is indeed stolen valour and someone who does treat ODMs in such disrespectful manner ought to get prosecuted for fraud amongst other things.

But what is wrong with buying medals from heirs or even awardees themselves should that be the case?

As I see it, an act of bravery or valour is an obligation, a debt the country has to the indivdual perfoming such act..... for which the country tries to even its debt by awarding a medal or order. In doing so the country does not really ever make up its debt... let alone turn the table on the awardee. The award belongs to the awardee to do with it as he pleases, be it wear it with pride, lock it up in a cupboard for safekeeping or display it for others to see .... or maybe even sell it for some or any reason. This is even more so for the heirs of the awardee.

What is important as I see it is that the medal finally comes to rest in the hand of someone who will appreciate it more than many, say heirs, would.

There is no stolen valour in that. Of course I do not collect US medals so I am not taken aback by such an act. But I do think that if countries like Russia and the US are going to get into these things then, other countries may easily follow suit.

Jim

[DutchBoy]

Jim,

I think everyone on the forum understands your logic...the question is: why doesn't the Congress understand that?? If someone doesn't want their or their ancestors' medals, let us collectors take care of them and cherish and research them.

This is simply a move to win some political traction with a minority of voters and pressure groups...no one there (or in the US at large) really cares about this issue at all is my guess. For the handful of freaks who want to buy a medal and wear it to pass it off as his own (as this bill seems to address) that is NOT a major problem and those people will surely be exposed to the ridicule of their communities.

[DutchBoy]

Ed,

Could you clarify something about that law as you understand it? You mention a ban on "gallantry awards." Does that mean that service medals and the like will still be legal to sell and own?

[JimZ]

Ha.... Should I run for congress?? Will I have the backing of OMSA members

Jim

[Guest Darrell]

The President will, of course, be signing this piece of imbecile garbage into law as soon as possible.

How long is "soon as possible" Ed? Estimates?

Edited December 11, 2006 by Darrell

[Ulsterman]

Idiotic!

[Guest Rick Research]

BRING IT ON!!!

I, yes I, me personally, was ISSUED my deceased grandfather's WW1 Victory Medal BY the United States Government in 1977

I've got the paperwork to PROVE it. I've got it. I'm keeping it.

AND THEY CAN PRY IT OUT OF MY COLD, DEAD FINGERS

I DEFY the United States Government (now that we have magically waved away that silly Iraq business and can get down to SERIOUS stuff like gay marriage etc)

to COME AND GET ME.

Your soon to be Amnesty International Posterboy

[JimZ]

Erm Rick.....

This and the Sotheby Auction thread really pushed all the wrong buttons for you didn't they

But I guess you say...in not too many words what many of us think notwithstanding the country making the ban!!

Jim

[Guest Rick Research]

I mean it. I'm willing to do Federal Time "for the cause."

Of course, it WOULD be rather embarassing if one of my own FBI cousins had to come and take me away, but I'll do it.

SOMEONE HAS TO STAND UP AND SHOUT "IDIOT" AT THOSE PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON.

[hunyadi]

What is sad is that the law makes it illegal for my borther-in-law who killed an insurgent at 500 yars with his SAW, who was peppered with shrapnel up and down one side of his body, who litteraly ran out of all forms of ammunition during an insurgent counter-attack and was almost down to 'throwing rocks at them' cant even mail home his well earned ARCOM with V device, of Bronze Star with V device or his Purple Heart home to his folks for safe keeping...thank you all of those who were elected and know better than the rest of us....

[Ralph A]

Nice sentiment, but anyone who has ever visited a federal penitentiary would not joke about it.

The spirit of the law is to punish the unscrupulous and not honest collectors. I read the underlying position papers (its nice to have friends on Capitol Hill) and they clearly state that honest collectors and historians are not the target, in spite of the double-talk. "It's OK to have it, but you can't make it, wear it in public, or sell it to someone who might misuse it..."

Sort of like the old marijuana laws... it is OK to have it, as long as you have a government tax stamp for it, which the government never printed, and in order to get the stamp you have to have the marijuana..." Double-talk.

But in this instance, I think collectors are still OK. Just don't wear it in public, and don't sell it to someone who might... if they do, you're liable. Just like The Citadel's honor code, "a cadel will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do.

I'll tell you what, I'll get one of my lawyers to do a little work on this. The one I have in mind was (or perhaps still is) the chief counsel for the Panama Canal Commission, and he hasn't got much to do... (update: apparently Dave is now an advisor to the secretary for Congressional affairs.)

So relax. Give me some time and I'll get you an official position on all this.

thanks,

-the management.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Ralph A

[Ed_Haynes]

Sounds nice, Ralph. The problem is:

1- If you read the statute (OK, I haven't seen the final presidential text, have you?), it does extend to what we do as collectors.

2- Several lawyers had their say over on the OMSA forum as it was moving forward and did not come away with your cheerful reading of the statute.

It does seem the FBI guys who haunt OMSA meetings looking for Medals of Honor (not for Osama) will ahve more to look for this fall.

At least those who wrote letters tried. Phoney patriotism won out in the final analysis (OK, this is the US and the US Congress after all!). I hope the OMSA will be seeking some more visible and aggressive response.

[Ralph A]

In that case, I won't waste Dave's time.

[Guest Rick Research]

And as I recall from the earlier discussions, it ALSO applies to all INSIGNIA.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2461...hl=Stolen+Valor

Now SOME people may think that my 35 year old great-uncle Walter

who was killed in action fighting FASCISM outside St. L? as a Private in Company K, 38th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Infantry Division, leaving behind a widow and two pre-school daughters should NOT have sent his sister one of his patches:

but he did. And she gave it to ME.

And my Clark-Gable-mustachioe'd great uncle Jack, Colonel USAR, Ret'd, who went off to France (the First Big One) from Brooklyn as an 18 year old volunteer and spent his mid-40s in rags in the New Guinea jungle passed along these:

And the same Cold Dead Fingers applies.

Prosecute and be damned.

[JBFloyd]

Title 18, Section 704, descended from legislation that went on the books around 1923. It too was intended to stop imposters -- right up to the moment that an FBI agent decided to enforce the letter of the law against collectors. The original intent didn't help Bob Nemser or Paul Peters, both of whom got to pay their lawyers around $20k to have the FBI drop the charges. Since nobody has been willing to take these cases to court, we'll never know if the law would hold up in court.

The new law is intended to get the imposters -- right up until someone decides to enforce the letter of the law. The logical absurdities are abundant, but that doesn't pay the lawyer.

The matter is not over. Even if the bill gets signed, there will be a period when the CFR is being revised. From the first day of the next session, there will also be a concerted effort to find a sponsor to introduce an amendment to address the difficulties we face.

We lived with the old legislation, we'll live with the new law. But, we will also continue the pressure to amend it so that everyone is happy.

[Daniel Murphy]

The Idiots! Instead of enforcing and strengthening the laws we have, they enact more "feel good" laws that they will still not be able to enforce (except perhaps for a few poor souls who run afoul of them and get crucified). I as much as anyone detest and revile those who fraudulently portray themselves as heros. Proscecute those b@st@ards to the fullest extent of the law. No, that would actually make sense, can't have the government doing that. My understanding was that the family could legally possess their relatives medals, has this changed? I have always tried to preserve my families military history and have my fathers and two uncles uniforms and campaign medals from WW2 and Korea. They might not be much, but if someone comes to take them, they have a fight on their hands. This is just so much like the gun laws that get enacted and punish the law abiding citizens, but not the punks out there with illegal weapons killing people. Wanna come take my Maxim too? (Good luck, bullet proof vests don't stop rifle rounds.) I am with you on this one Rick. Come and get me.

Dan

[Jim Baker]

Where does it say you can't possess the medals?

I know a few FBI agents and I don't think you need to worry about the "medal police" knocking at your door.

[hunyadi]

The absurdity of the law seems to want to go after the frauds, but in the attempt makes it much like current gun law stupidity. If we as collectors are supposed to be proteced, as some senators have supposedly stated, how will that be enforced? Are we supposed to get a 'collectors licence?' Are we supposed to set up our table at a show and require anyone whanting to by a Bronze Star with a background check. "Here fill this form out and in a week I can deliver it to you" ---???? Some people it seems find the new law not as harsh as one would think, but the wording to this law is prety clear - even to this average citizen. It is illegal to have these medals unless the Congress awawrded them to you - thats pretty plain. Of course the grandfather clause means that the medals you have - you can keep. But god forbid if you should find in a year a set belonging to a Silver Star winner in the dumpster - walk away from it let it rot in the land fill, because you culd be stealing someones valor. Inf fact without your 'collecitng licence' you are probably going to put it on your chest at the next VFW meeitng according to the law makers...Sheer stupidity - I hope the OMSA and others will stomp even harder.

Interestingly when I wrote my law makers - not a single one of them ever sent a response letter - not even a form letter of 'yes I agree' or 'respecfuly I dont agree' - what rot!

[JimZ]

It does seem the FBI guys who haunt OMSA meetings looking for Medals of Honor (not for Osama) will ahve more to look for this fall.

Ha ha..... Bush thinks that he can fob the American nation into looking foir "Omsa" instead of "Osama" .... And looks like he stands a wee better chance of finding "him" don't you think? Good one Ed..... defo much better than "the stolen valour act"!!! What a name anyways...... maybe should have simply been called "Possession of Medal Act" ...... or maybe even "We Want all the Toys to Ourselves Act". Sounds like that to me!

Jim

[JimZ]

OOOHHHH !!!

And may I add very very seriously that for those of you collecting USSR and US medals, you now have to watch out for both the FBI and KGB!

Better safe than sorry! You have been warned!

Jim