What do you have that's now worthless?!

[Luftmensch]

Jeepers, and I thought I had problems. Sounds like a Disney Resort waiting to happen...Rgds

[hunyadi]

Now we're starting to think like politicians!!!

No - you need to add the fact that you need a licence (with fees) - a background check (more fees) - a psych exam (more fees - but this one is so that you are deemed sane enough not to wear the medals in public and tell everyone about the 10 German F DVII's that you shot down in WW1)

Sounds like lawyer stuff huh? - notice where we get the policiticans....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Will film studios be allowed to have them?

If you register yourself as a producer... can you keep them as props?

[hunyadi]

Will film studios be allowed to have them?

If you register yourself as a producer... can you keep them as props?

HMMMMMM good point - Hollyweird here I come!

[Ed_Haynes]

FJP has cancelled their auction scheduled for 22 February 2007 -- reason? -- the "Stolen Valor Act".

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

So... out of curiosity... and I know tons of this is still up in the air... but does this idiotic new law only apply to "named" pieces/groups... or only certain awards or basically any and all U.S. awards?

I don't have any named pieces. I'd posted what I have and have no idea if any of them are effected by all this or not:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10730

I don't have any intention on selling any of it but it really ticks me off that due to this latest rubbish foisted on us by our moron politicians over here there's a potential of any or all of this now being worthless unless I take the risk of going on the black market. It's insane! As has been said, you'd think they'd have better things to do with their time and the money we pay them in taxes for them to turn around and stab us in the back like this! Cretins!!!! Well, like Rick said and I seconded in another post... they can come pry them out of my cold, dead hands!

Anyhow, opinions on where I stand with what I have and what, if any effect I'm facing would be welcome.

Thanks!!!!

Dan

[hunyadi]

HI Dan -

Think of your medals like a big bag of heroin. (though the only two that appear on the legislation is your Navy Cross and Purple Heart) You can have your big bag of heroin in your house, and the only way the man can come and take it away is with probable cause to search or a search warrant. Now - you can have your big bag of heroin, but you cant take it out of the house and 'move' it from one place to another, you certainly dont want to go out in the streets and say 'look at me! I have a big Navy Crosss - ahemm bag of herion!' You certainly dont want to take that bag o heroin and try and sell it to someone else, but as long as you have it safe and tidy in your home and you remain a model citizen - they cant touch you.

Think of it this way - as others have said - the jist of the legislation was written just like drug laws - the main reason the drugs get around to new users, new markets, etc... is because of transportation. So possesion (outside the home - in public) is illegal becuase you are transporting it from one place to another.

What I am waiting to see is the first real court case about this as its such a crappy written piece of legislation that contardicts so many other precidents that it would be an ambulance chacers dream to go to trial with this one.

Here is a kilo of 'contraband'

(for all of those who think I am being to sarcastic - yep - its either that or cry.....

[Hauptmann]

HI Dan -

Think of your medals like a big bag of heroin. (though the only two that appear on the legislation is your Navy Cross and Purple Heart) You can have your big bag of heroin in your house, and the only way the man can come and take it away is with probable cause to search or a search warrant. Now - you can have your big bag of heroin, but you cant take it out of the house and 'move' it from one place to another, you certainly dont want to go out in the streets and say 'look at me! I have a big Navy Crosss - ahemm bag of herion!' You certainly dont want to take that bag o heroin and try and sell it to someone else, but as long as you have it safe and tidy in your home and you remain a model citizen - they cant touch you.

Think of it this way - as others have said - the jist of the legislation was written just like drug laws - the main reason the drugs get around to new users, new markets, etc... is because of transportation. So possesion (outside the home - in public) is illegal becuase you are transporting it from one place to another.

What I am waiting to see is the first real court case about this as its such a crappy written piece of legislation that contardicts so many other precidents that it would be an ambulance chacers dream to go to trial with this one.

Here is a kilo of 'contraband'

(for all of those who think I am being to sarcastic - yep - its either that or cry.....

Hi Charles,

Hey, let the sarcasm fly my friend. I don't think this moronic legislation deserves anything less. I just can't tell you how upset I am over the whole thing and I know I'm far from being alone. Yet again in one fell swoop they have thrown the baby out with the bath water with no concern whatsoever over how this is going to effect innocent, law abiding historians, collectors, dealers, etc. I have no problem with going after those who would pose as war heroes, vets, etc. But there has to be a better way of doing it. It's just like what they've done time and time with the gun situation. The criminals could care less how many laws go on the books... it doesn't stop them for a second. I mean, think about it... they're career is breaking the laws!!!! The only ones it affects are those of us who obey the law. And as a reward we keep getting kicked in the backside by our own government!

I mean, there were a few more pieces I'd have really loved to have. I was hoping to get the Commander of the Legion of Merit as well as the Officer's grade to finish out my set. I'd also have liked to get the Army Distinguished Service Cross and Medal and a Silver and Bronze Star. I think that would have been about it. Now, unless I go via the black market, etc. I'm probably going to have little chance of getting any of them... unless, by some miracle, they come to their senses and either amend or dump this insanity they've unleased. I can only hope organizations like OMSA raise Cain over this issue as well as dealers and collectors alike.

I swear... I just get so tired of fighting just to be left alone. It seems that the powers that be will not be happy until they can install cameras and mikes in our homes in every room, nook and cranny as well as our vehicles, offices, etc., and track our every move from birth to death. Sounds alot like the DDR doesn't it?

Well, I strongly suggest we all learn the following song:

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/STUDinfo/hilar...E/gedanken.html

Die Gedanken sind frei, wer kann sie erraten,

sie fliegen vorbei wie n?chtliche Schatten.

Kein Mensch kann sie wissen, kein J?ger erschie?en

mit Pulver und Blei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Ich denke was ich will und was mich begl?cket,

doch alles in der Still', und wie es sich schicket.

Mein Wunsch, mein Begehren kann niemand verwehren,

es bleibet dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Und sperrt man mich ein im finsteren Kerker,

das alles sind rein vergebliche Werke.

Denn meine Gedanken zerrei?en die Schranken

und Mauern entzwei, die Gedanken sind frei!

Drum will ich auf immer den Sorgen entsagen

und will mich auch nimmer mit Willen verklagen.

Man kann ja im Herzen stets lachen und scherzen

und denken dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Ich liebe den Wein, mein M?dchen vor allen,

sie tut mir allein am besten gefallen.

Ich bin nicht alleine bei meinem Glas Weine,

mein M?dchen dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Used to drive the nazi's positively nuts! Perhaps it will do the same to these morons!!!! One can only hope.

My thoughts are definitely free and they can't take that way from me.

Sorry... this whole issue just makes my blood pressure go through the roof!

Many thanks my friend. Let's pray that some sanity returns and they amend or dump this stupid law and we can all get back to normal.

Dan

[Ed_Haynes]

All joking aside, and in an effort to get us back on topic, I don't think FJP will mind me quoting their e-mail:

"Dear FJP Auctions Client:

"With disappointment and deep regret, we announce the cancellation of our live-mail sale scheduled for Thursday evening, February 22, 2007, at the Show of Shows in Louisville, Kentucky. Recent passage of the Stolen Valor Act makes it clearly illegal to solicit for sale, to sell, or to ship US decorations and campaign medals. The mailing of the catalog constitutes solicitation such that FJP and each client consigning a US federal medal becomes liable for prosecution. Therefore, in order to protect our clients, and upon advice of counsel, we have decided to cancel the sale. Go to the OMSA web site forum (www.OMSA.org) for a good presentation of the law and its impact on collectors.

"As the legislation worked its way through Congress, collectors were assured that the intent was not to adversely effect collector, museum, and historian activity, and that the offending language would be changed in conference. However, in the final analysis, that did not happen. As of this date, we are aware that US decorations and medals are being sold at auction elsewhere, including e-Bay, but we have not yet verified enforcement activity.

"We expect to conduct our next sale in May as scheduled and hope to be able to include US Federal decorations and campaign medals. As a worst case, we will offer non-Federal US medals and militaria, as well as orders,

decorations, and medals of the world.

"FJP will offer for sale many of the lots scheduled to be sold at the SOS sale by private treaty. The text of the revised catalog will be posted on our website by Monday, February 5, 2007.

"We call your attention to FJP?s e-Bay auctions conducted weekly at seller name FJPauctions. We expect to increase the number of lots offered. Many items from John Sylvester?s Indochina Collection, including a series of rare French crests will only be offered through e-Bay.

"If you have questions about the Stolen Valor Act or FJP?s action in this matter, please call Jeff at ___ or Barry at ___. [Phone numbers excised.]

We look forward to seeing you at the Show of Shows in Louisville, Kentucky.

"Very best regards,

"Barry, Jeff, Shep, and Fred

"FJP Auctions, Inc."

A very sad message indeed. I am getting tired of saying this. but: Something MUST be done!

Edited January 16, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Chris Boonzaier]

How does this all effect selling on Forums?

[Ed_Haynes]

How does this all effect selling on Forums?

Takes anyone in the US out of the game. Potentially. Shipping these things within the US is illegal.

No one has a clue how the law will be enforced, but I'm not sure anyone wants to be a test case.

See http://www.omsa.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36 for more aspects, especially http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1332.

And, additionally, FJP sells (used to sell?) other nice things too, though US awards were the core.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[hunyadi]

A very sad message indeed. I am getting tired of saying this. but: Something MUST be done!

Hi Ed - I if my US Civics reminds me its now a matter of the courts as once the president signs it - its law untill the legal branch can hammer it out. But - looking at it - its almost a no-brianer for even a half-baked (from studying too much) law student.

As for getting a LoM - I belive that you still can? As the law only specifically mentions the DSC, SS, Navy Cross, PH, AF Cross, and??? (I am forgetting) - but the Bronze Star was not on the list and neither is the Legion of Merit. (or do they fall under the medals awarded by Congress???)

[Ed_Haynes]

Hi Ed - I if my US Civics reminds me its now a matter of the courts as once the president signs it - its law untill the legal branch can hammer it out. But - looking at it - its almost a no-brianer for even a half-baked (from studying too much) law student.

As for getting a LoM - I belive that you still can? As the law only specifically mentions the DSC, SS, Navy Cross, PH, AF Cross, and??? (I am forgetting) - but the Bronze Star was not on the list and neither is the Legion of Merit. (or do they fall under the medals awarded by Congress???)

No one really knows. The law can be read to cover everything. So far, the regulations backing it up haven't been drafted and there is some hope that the OMSA can intervene at this stage (though they were pretty useless on the Hill). The hormone-overdosed self-nominated patriots who rammed this thing through an unresisting election-year Congress made it so sloppy that no one really knows, no one wants to be a test case. Pervasive fear beats carefully crafted legislation any day.

And, with Canada echoing the same sort of insanity (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13957) and Australia restricting export for some time, there could be dark days on the horizon.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Luftmensch]

I'm not sure about the heroin analogy. It's yours legally (for the duration) if you have a bill of sale pre-dating Pres Burning Bush's signing into law for all items over $500 in value, I read somewhere. I think the only legal way to dispose of these upon death is to chuck them over the White House fence, or maybe find the memorial on the Mall that corresponds to your time period of your medals and DROP THEM IN THE RECEPTACLE PROVIDED!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

I've said it here elsewhere and I'll say it again:

I volunteer to be The Test Case.

I publicly announce that I do, indeed, have in my retroactively insanely felonious possession the WW1 Victory Medal that the United States Government issued to ME as next of kin per then-legal federal law in 1977.

I have ALL the paperwork (note: quaint period typewritten carbons NOT computer printed forgeries):

I have the forensically-provable mailing box:

The feeble morons detailed to that "squad" instead of paying attention to mosque-raisingly "invisible" homicidal Saudi psychopaths with "privacy rights" can come for me.

Being a cousin of BOTH the President AND the Chairman of the DNC, that will make some damned fine headlines, depending on the network: "Bush/Dean kin arrested for possessing grampa's medal given to him by Carter Administration." It'll be MORE interesting if (jeez I hope not! they ARE smarter than that!) it was my own FBI agent cousins who came for me, and bring me up before my local Federal District Court judge-- who happens to be married to (inevitably--there is no escape) another cousin. Media circus time, folks. .

BRING IT ON.

[Daniel Cole]

I have written my state's congressional deligation asking to know how they voted and how this effects me a collector. Do I now become a criminal due to a stroke of Bush's pen. I figure since they passed it, they should be able to explain it. It seems this is very similar to the land grab of eminate domain, in that the goverment just stomped on you personal rghts and made your property worthless.

I'll post their replys.

Hell they should stamp on the back of any non issued piece includung the MOH "replica" or "copy" like they do for the VC and sell'm.

The MOH vets are behind this 100%, but no one wants to touch that scared cow.

[Stogieman]

Well, I'm really glad I sold out all my US holdings a year ago......... but I feel very sorry for everyone else. I'm surprised at this legislation. But I have only one question.....

Am I a criminal if/when my relatives leave me their awards?

Is my Mother In Law a Criminal for having a framed set of her husband's awards on the wall? (B-17 CP shot down over Belgium)??

Really??

[Stogieman]

Oh yeah..... since the Soviets have instituted a "National heritage Treasure" law regarding their ODM.... and the US has now enacted the "Stolen Valor Act"..... how long before it becomes outright illegal for US collectors to gather anything other than dust....... ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Stogieman]

A final note for John..... John, send the AG back before Germany claims it as a National Treasure... I will smuggle it out of the country in an unmentionable place to add to my secret horde in (ha, thought I was going to tell, didn't you?)

[Luftmensch]

ACH so...I think I go back and clean by AG badge v e r y c a r e f u l l y !!!!!!

[hunyadi]

Well, I'm really glad I sold out all my US holdings a year ago......... but I feel very sorry for everyone else. I'm surprised at this legislation. But I have only one question.....

Am I a criminal if/when my relatives leave me their awards?

Is my Mother In Law a Criminal for having a framed set of her husband's awards on the wall? (B-17 CP shot down over Belgium)??

Really??

This is the thing that gets me the most and why I use the herion example - no, you can have your relatives medals all you want. You just cant transport them! So after the relative dies sell the house... and since its against the law to physicaly move them via mail or 'transport' (ie the trunk of your car) you can go and see your relatives medals any time you want - with the permission of the new owners of the house of course.... absurd - yes - but its the point. Isnt it?

Rick - my hat off to you - I sadly hope that they clap you in irons for driving your car around with your grandfahters medal in the front seat. The media circus would be well worth the attention of the drive-by-media. (since you are related to Bush of course) And the court case and any subsequent appeals - would be over in about a day.

Daniel - I wrote my congresmenn about this legislation and didnt even get a single relply from any of them. Not even a dang form letter. As for who voted for it - every singel one of them it was unanimous. No one would dare vote against something that 'protected the honor and bravery' of our fighting soldiers durng a time of war. That 'no' vote would be blasted across your opponents campaign ads till you were contradicting and denying that you actualy voeted that way...

[Daniel Cole]

I will call them each and every day if I don't hear from them soon. The new governor was the representative at the time. I can always walk inot his office and see what happens.

What a bunch of chicken shits.

[Guest Rick Research]

I keep hearing that noise when the Rumanian crowd roared "NO!!!!!!!!" back at Ceausescu in 1989.

My goodness, THAT was a fine, fine sound.

[Luftmensch]

If Rick gets into trouble I will put my Canadian passport on eBay (but no medals!) to get his defence fund rolling, so any of you American medal collectors who need a new Heimat bid strong...

Edited January 16, 2007 by Luftmensch

[Guest Rick Research]

In ADDITION to calling President Bush and ex-President Clinton as co-defendants--for making posthumous MoH awards in violation of the Crime Control Act of 1994 forbidding possession of the MoH by anybody BUT the recipient--after I am arrested, I shall also be calling for testimony from the entire St. Louis Records Center.

I direct your attention, ladies and gentlemen, to paragraphs 3 and 4, which are CLEARLY in retroactive-violation of the Stolen Valor Nonsense of 2006:

Rather than writing TO Congress-fools, let me suggest "outing" those whose official biographies reveal that they themselves personally have "Stolen Valor." Be nice to see a few hoisted petards.