Luftwaffe Juncker LW Para

[Jan Arne S]

Hi Guys !

This one arrived for a couple weeks ago .

Buntmetall Juncker LW Para .

Jan Arne

[Jan Arne S]

Back of LW Para Juncker .

Jan Arne

[ERIC]

Sweet 2nd pattern, Jan - congrats!

ERIC

[Bob Lyons]

and I second Eric's comments!

Bob

[J Temple-West]

That's a classic, Jan....Very nice!

[Jan Arne S]

Hi Guys !

Thanks for comments and inputs!

Sems like it is a little bit quiet at the German Dealer for the moment when it comes to LW Badges and awards , spec. on buntmetall / tombac badges .

Jan Arne

Edited March 12, 2007 by Jan Arne S

[John]

Nice....!! How much did it cost you? I hope you don't think I'm being cheeky... It IS a nice one...

Regards,

John

[Stogieman]

I always felt the Juncker products to be above & beyond the competitors, even in WW2. These just look 7 "feel" so much nicer to me as opposed to a BSW or Deumer badge

[nesredep]

Hello Jan Arne

Very nice. Can you show me one made by Deumer.

[J Temple-West]

Here you go, nesredep. An example of an 'all parts' Para by W.Deumer.

[J Temple-West]

Reverse.

[nesredep]

Nice , thanks for shearing.

[coolldad]

hello could you please explain "'all parts' Para by W.Deumer." the all parts part. i ask because i have a Deumer radio operators badge that dont fit norms. but its my understanding that companies shared parts. like selling to smaller cottage shops.

[J Temple-West]

Coolldad,

The short answer: you?re right? There was a lot of collaboration, especially between the two long established firms, ?Juncker? and ?Deumer.?

The three main 1st pattern badges (Pilot, Observer and Combined Pilot/Observer), instituted on the 26th March 1936, were produced by these firms from what we assume to be in-house dies.

Juncker

Deumer

[J Temple-West]

The first sign of collaboration is seen when the Luftwaffe Para badge was instituted on the 5th November 1936. Juncker produced a new set of dies for both the eagle and wreath, while Deumer kept its existing 1st pattern wreath but used the eagle supplied by Juncker..

Juncker (Left) - Deumer (Right)

[J Temple-West]

In 1938, with the advent of war looming, Germany?s awards manufactures, fully aware of what was to come, prepared for the mass production of medals, awards and qualification badges to fill the ever increasing demands made by the Wehrmacht. New designs, for heavier badges were made, dies cut and production began.

Imo, Juncker supplied Deumer with a new set of dies for their range of early war badges and Deumer assembled/finished these badges in-house...These badges, for the want of a better term, are known as ?All parts? by Deumer?

Early war badges by Deumer

[J Temple-West]

At some point, the life of certain Deumer dies came to and end and Juncker started supplying Deumer with parts. This is when we see completed Juncker badges, still retaining the characteristic Deumer hinge (with grinding wheel marks) and catch assemblies, showing that Deumer, although supplied with Juncker parts, still assembled/finished these badges in-house.

Anyway, I hope this all makes sense as I'm fighting, what my wife calls a 'man-cold' and the brain isn't working too well today...Atishoooo! Bless me!

As to your Radio Op/Air Gunner badge. I have to say..It doesn't look good, but you never know!

[coolldad]

west, thank you for a great reply. i'm told it's a possability that the radio badge i have, are parts sold to a cottage assembler. is there a way to say one way or another if this badge of mine is good or not ?

[J Temple-West]

There are a few Radio Operator/Air Gunner badges out there that are as yet unidentified, but I'm afraid that this one is not one of them. Each maker has its own characteristics and your badge being (Imo) a cast copy of an original buntmetal "Deumer" may look the part, but on closer inspection... incorrect hinge, soft features, signs of casting on the reverse, wrong metal.

A side-by-side comparison will give you a good idea of the differences and what to look for when assessing a particular badge.

Of course this is only one opinion. Let?s see what the other Luftwaffe collectors have to say.

Comparison below.

[J Temple-West]

Original Radio Operator/Air Gunner badge by W.Deumer.

[Richard Gordon]

This thread has wandered a bit!!

I have to agree with John, I do not believe the badge is original but a casting where an original Deumer was used for the master mold. You can see the out-line of the wreath is the same and the overal details are Deumer but the quality and finish, rivets, hinge, etc are not.

A very interesting comparison made by J T-W between Derumer and Juncker. You can see the styles are similar yet the badges are different. You can see the early style wreath clearly differ especially at the bottom (Deumer is flatter) and the eagles have different details. I would say during this period it is clear Deumer and Juncker were independent but perhaps used the same die cutter.

Rich

[coolldad]

thank you gents. but i was not asking if the badge was assembled by deumer. i'm asking if deumer sold parts to smaller assemblers. like selling the eagle to small shops that used there own hinges etc.

[J Temple-West]

Hi coolldad,

Even if it were the case that Deumer supplied "small shops" with parts, you would expect to see original parts with variant hinges, etc.

The fact that your badge is a cast of an original badge is proof positive that it was produced post-1945.

[coolldad]

you must have better eyes than me. i am not sure what you see that tell you its cast. could you please help me understand what to look for as far as knowing its been cast. thank you. i'm just trying to learn.

DaveR

[J Temple-West]

could you please help me understand what to look for as far as knowing its been cast. thank you. i'm just trying to learn.

Of course we can, Dave. That's what the club is all about.

Tell you what I'll do...I think we've used enough of Jan's thread discussing other than his fine Juncker Para badge? I'll start a new thread on your badge and let the collecting community give you the benefit of their vast experience in explaining how to spot a cast copy.

Link to the new thread.. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16386

There are some extremely good castings of originals out there, and getting better all the time to the extent that other than the visual, detailed measurements have to be taken and compared to those of known originals (Clue 1.)... Yes, that's how bad it can get!

So knowing what fakes, and their characteristics (cast or pure fantasy) are out there is just as important as learning the characteristics of originals.