DDR Zivilverteidigung (Civil Defense)

[Paul R]

Here is a photo I found on this site of my second tunic. As I remember, the insignia wear is very consistent here too. I will post more images when I get to the tunic in my field day. I do remember these strange boards. They definitely are not Fire Dept. The underlay is a nice violet. I have never seen these before or since. I will check for tunic stampings as well. I would think that they should have NVA stamps, right?

[Gordon Craig]

Paul,

Yes the tunics you have shown should probably have NVA markings. They may however have ZV markings. ZV marked uniform items are very rare. I only remember seeing a picture of one great coat with ZV markings. Since the full time members of the ZV were either serving or retired members of the NVA I wouldn't be at all surprised to see NVA marked tunics with cuffbands on them. I don't remember seeing these light wieght tunics with cuffbands before.

As you say, the wear seems to be consisitance with prolonged use especially for the collar tabs. I'd like you to check one thing for me. What is the distance, in centimtres, from the cuff end of the sleeve to the bottom of the ZV cuffband on both tunics.

Regards,

Gordon

[Paul R]

Thanks Gordon. I will make the measurements when I get home. What are you thinking...? The CT is very very worn as well. The wear is equal to that on the tabs. Just no fraying yet. The attaching thread is the same as seen on the collar tabs. The tunic is so worn that the stampings are completely gone.

I know what you are saying about the Stassi and BG light weight tunics. I have both(several of each) and none have the CT. I would be suspicous if the wear was non consistant with the insignia and tunic. I lifted up the edge of the CT and there is a shadow. It has been there a long time and worn that way. I am very perplexed.

What do you make of the boards on the second tunic?

[Gordon Craig]

Paul,

I asked about the distance measurements because they are laid down in regulations and almost universally strictly adhered to.

As to the baords on the second tunic, they could be Volunter Firemen's boards.

Regards,

Gordon

[Paul R]

Paul,

I asked about the distance measurements because they are laid down in regulations and almost universally strictly adhered to.

As to the baords on the second tunic, they could be Volunter Firemen's boards.

Regards,

Gordon

Thanks Gordon, I can hardly wait to see what it is. Just out of curiosity, what is this measurement?

For the boards, have you observed a violet varient to the FD boards? They are definitely not pink or carmine.

[Gordon Craig]

Paul,

I made a mistake along the way. It wasn't Volunteer Firemen's boards I was thinking of but professional firemen. I 've scanned a page of their boards from my reference material and it is posted below. Perhaps these will be a better match for the boards on your tunic.

Regards,

Gordon

[Knarf]

Hello, here some equipment of Civil Defense

NBC suit, NBC Bed for babies and smaller pets

Regards Frank

[Paul R]

I measured the distance from the bottom of the CT to the bottom of the sleeve. I got exactly 5 inches(12.7 cm)

I see your point about the firefighter boards. I think that still could be a varient, but the color is very purple instead of the carmine.

That is very interesting looking gear, knarf!

[Gordon Craig]

Paul,

Sorry for not replying sooner. A Militaria Show and a new early (1956) BW tunic got in the way!

By regulation, the cuffband should be 13 cm from the cuff end of the sleeve or 1 cm above the top of the false turn back cuff. Yours is close enough to meet the regs. A nice tunic that I wouldn't mind having in my collection.

Regards,

Gordon

[Paul R]

Paul,

Sorry for not replying sooner. A Militaria Show and a new early (1956) BW tunic got in the way!

By regulation, the cuffband should be 13 cm from the cuff end of the sleeve or 1 cm above the top of the false turn back cuff. Yours is close enough to meet the regs. A nice tunic that I wouldn't mind having in my collection.

Regards,

Gordon

Thanks Gordon!!! I was going to give up collecting, if that CT was not original to it!! LOL The wear and ect to all pieces(except for the SB) are so perfect!

I will find that other tunic and post it as well.

Paul

[Laurence Strong]

Nice uniforms. What the difference in waffenfarbe for these and the Stasi, who used the same color IIRC

[Paul R]

Nice uniforms. What the difference in waffenfarbe for these and the Stasi, who used the same color IIRC

Hey Larry,

The colors are different. Stassi used a dark wine red. The Civil Defense used the color violet.

[Laurence Strong]

Thanks Paul

[Paul R]

I have found that second Civil Defense tunic. The second Cuff title is about the same height from the end of the sleeve as the other. I just pulled my Fire Fighting Officer's tunic and found that the branch color for it is also violet... I guess that they stopped using the Carmine, so the shoulder boards on the tunic could very well be for the FD.

If anyone has any EM Civil Defense boards, I would love to talk with ya!

[Hauptmann]

I have found that second Civil Defense tunic. The second Cuff title is about the same height from the end of the sleeve as the other. I just pulled my Fire Fighting Officer's tunic and found that the branch color for it is also violet... I guess that they stopped using the Carmine, so the shoulder boards on the tunic could very well be for the FD.

If anyone has any EM Civil Defense boards, I would love to talk with ya!

Hi Paul,

Was just surfing on German Ebay and it seems that they might have used that same piping and insignia for both the Civil Defense and the Fire Service as the sellers there keeping mentioning that such insignia were used by both. So it might just be that the boards that are on there are indeed correct.

Dan :cheers:

[Paul R]

Thanks Dan... then I will hold off ripping them from the tunic!

paul

[Hauptmann]

Thanks Dan... then I will hold off ripping them from the tunic!

paul

No problem! Just sent you more examples via PM. Seems the piping color was the same but the uniforms colors, etc., were different. So definitely... I'd leave it as is as it's most likely just the way it's supposed to be.

Dan :cheers:

[Hauptmann]

The more I see over on German ebay the more I feel that the Feuerwehr used the darker blue colored uniforms and the collar tabs with fire helmet and fire axe, etc., whereas the Zivilverteidigung used the WWII type tabs with the purple backing along with specific civil defense insignia such as the patches, cuff titles, etc. But seems the boards were the same between them... at least as far as the piping color and most likely were indeed the same. So the uniforms and other insignia on the whole would set them apart as two different organizations.

Dan :cheers:

[Gordon Craig]

Dan,

I am afraid that whoever you are quoting from ebay.de is mistaken. While the colour used to designate both services is refered to as "malino" in German it is a slightly different colour for Feherwehr and ZV and they definitely use different boards. Also, there are considerable differences between Volunteer Firemen (FFW) and Profesional Firemen's (BFW) uniform insignia etc in the DDR so we need to specifically identify which group we are refering to.

I've posted a couple of pages from one of my reference books below on the shoulder boards and insignia worn by the ZV. Paul's field uniforms are something new to me as I am used to seeing a different type of field uniform worn by the ZV and they use a different set of insignia on them. These are the bars shown at the bottom of one of the pages. However, these are late DDR insignia and it would be reasonable to assume that Paul's uniforms were actually used before this new rank system was introduced in the late 80s.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Insignia page.

[Gordon Craig]

Paul,

Now back to your tunics. I am not suggesting by what I said above that you should remove the boards that came on your tunic. Since removable boards are subject to replacement by anyone we will never know for sure but I rarely remove something I receive on a uniform because I believe, at that time, that it is incorrect. To do that is almost always a mistake. The tunic may have been worn this way whether the boards were correct or not. For example, a friend of mine bought a very rare 1951 model Hungarian tunic about two years ago and because he thought the sewn-in shoulder boards were not correct he removed them. A few months later we discovered in the Military Museum archives that they were correct for the time period. He is still trying to figure out how to re-attach them without making it too obvious tht they were removed!

Anyway, I went back through some old threads on the WAF DDR Forum and found a couple of pictures that will fit here. One of which is of a ZV "Drillich" tunic similar to the two you have with field type collar tabs but the boards and the cuffband have been removed. Pretty much guarantees the tunics you have were authentic with the cuffband which we were pretty sure of already. The second picture is of a Berufsfeuehrwer officer with a good view of his collar tabs. FYI Bereitschaften der KVP Infanterie arm of colour was also refered to as "malino".

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

BF tunic picture.

[Paul R]

Thanks for the replies everyone!! What book is that you are referencing? I have never seen those ranking stripes before! Do you have such a tunic?

[Gordon Craig]

Paul,

Sorry I forgot to include the reference for the book. Thought of that after the post and meant to get back and do it but got busy with other things. I have two references for the ZV rank bars on their field uniforms. One is "Uniformeffekten der bewaffneten Organe der DDR" Spezialkatalog Band II - Ministerium fur Nationale Verteidigung 1956-1990 and Ministerium fur Staatssicherheit 1957-1989 pages 50 and 51 by Klaus Walter. They are also illustrated in "NVA-Kalendar 1990 page 170. No I do not have a tunic with those rank bars in wear but I do have a picture and it is posted below.

Regards,

Gordon

[Paul R]

Paul,

Sorry I forgot to include the reference for the book. Thought of that after the post and meant to get back and do it but got busy with other things. I have two references for the ZV rank bars on their field uniforms. One is "Uniformeffekten der bewaffneten Organe der DDR" Spezialkatalog Band II - Ministerium fur Nationale Verteidigung 1956-1990 and Ministerium fur Staatssicherheit 1957-1989 pages 50 and 51 by Klaus Walter. They are also illustrated in "NVA-Kalendar 1990 page 170. No I do not have a tunic with those rank bars in wear but I do have a picture and it is posted below.

Regards,

Gordon

Thanks Gordon,

The "Uniformeffekten der bewaffneten Organe der DDR Spezialkatalog Band II" is one that I do not have... This one has the police forces as well, right? I have been looking all over for it. I do have the volume one, that covers the military branches(it has been a while since I have pulled them out!).