Bob Hunter Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 (edited) OK, gentlemen, what we have here is a very impressive 11X bar in the pre-1915 style and all ribbons are identifiable except for the last three on the bar.The third from last ribbon appears to be Romanian---Order of Michael? Star Order?The next to last ribbon--no clue.The last ribbon is believed to be the Italian Order of Saints Mauritius and Lazarus or the Swedish Vasa Order as both use the same ribbon. Having said that it may be impossible to nail the last ribbon down. Edited August 10, 2005 by Bob Hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 ...and t'other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Larger please. Is that next to last one silver metallic thread on the blue?This one was never in my paws, even briefly (sniffle) and despite the range of German peacetime Orders, no luck in my Rank List flipping to date. The screwy foreign ones don't help, since I don't know what they are, and the might-be-several-things monocolors are always a "joy."The problem with a bar like this is, barring getting lucky with the 1914 Rank List--assuming "last worn most recently"-- it involves having to search through MANY issues.No joy in 1914. The guy was NOT a veteran of 1870, but if he joined in 1871/2, this could still date any time from 1897 to 1914. Not a naval combination, so definitely army, certainly at least a Major...but the additional problem is the Red eagle 4 could have been left behind in wear becasue of the Crown (2nd award) and yet this guy COULD have been a General, with other awards bumped up from medal bar wear. That expands the "parameters" of who suspects are (Majors to Generals der) as well as the time period. I have nothing between 1907 and 1912, which is quite a large hole this guy COULD have added the crucial awards in... and retired, disappearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Thats an excellent piece, Bob Can someone specify the ribbons for me please? This is, what i recognize:1. Red-Eagle 4th class with crown (like Rick said)2. Crown Order?3. Centenary Medal4. Something Hessian?5. Saxon-Altenburg MEdal?6. ? (damned, i know that ribbon!)7. White Falcon?8. Waldeck something9. ?10. ?11. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Y Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 #10 looks like a Bulgarian Military Merit Order if it's if rick's hunch is right and it's metallic thread. There's one on Detlev's site now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian L Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 don't the rumanians have such blue ribbons with silver wire as well?but anyway - great bar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 (edited) Gerd, this is the sequence of ribbons on the bar;Red Eagle w/ large crown device (3/4 class)Prussian Long Service (assuming 25 year cross)Centennial MedaHessian Order of Phillip the BraveSax-Ernestine House OrderSax-Weimar White Falcon OrderWaldeck House OrderUnknown-Romanian Order of Michael or Star Order?Unknown-no clueUnknown-Italian Order of Saints Mauritius and Lazarus or Swedish Vasa Order (I understand they used the same ribbon)Rick, I'll have an enlargement for you as soon as I replace a couple of vacuum tubes in my scanner. Edited August 10, 2005 by Bob Hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 It can't be a Bulgarian "war ribbon" award--that would make no sense (and the proportions are wrong) so it must be one of those ??? Rumanian things which they kept changing the ribbons for!I am not sure what the first two of the foreign final three are, which is a big handicap in going through THOUSANDS of pages.I'd say the Red Eagle has to be 4 with Crown because with that device on there, if it was a 3rd there would be the "bow tie" ribbon showing up from a 4th Class on it. But even so, a holder of a 4 with Crown could ALSO have had a 3 with Bow, and THAT could have moved up to a 2 with Oakleaves-- while still leaving the 4 with Crown behind. That's why this guy could be anything from a Major (no Prussian Crown Order 3rd yet) to a General der Etwas with gazillions of neck and tummy orders and these left behind of medal bar classes.You'd think a combination like this-- either Guards or General Staff-- would LEAP off a page, but not so far.It is waaaaaaaaay too hot and sweaty to sit greezy-fingered flipping ancient pages while chemically bonding book covers to my knees in this weather! (Schloss Rickenstein does NOT have air conditioning.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Thanks, guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Rick, here is my feeble attempt at enlarging the "mysterious three." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 So Bob, IS that silver thread in there, or some sort of weird fading?Anybody recognize these pre-1914 ribbons as indeed Rumanian-- and if so, what ARE they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 (edited) It depends on the angle of the light. The weave in the gray band is such that the high points give off a near metallic reflection but I can't say there is a silver thread in there anywhere.Pawzon available at your request. Edited August 11, 2005 by Bob Hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 While the search for the identity of the "mysterious three" continues I thought I'd post a close up of the Crown device on the RAO which is very nicely done. (Yet another reason to love Imperial) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 12, 2005 Author Share Posted August 12, 2005 A WAF Moderator has identified the ribbon third from the end as the Order of the Star of Romania. Second from the end is the Order of the Crown of Romania. And the last one is still uncertain, possibly Italian, Persian or Swedish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 That's what I thought, but wasn't sure with the way the Rumanians kept changing ribbons and the German stock outfitters lagged behind on updating them. (Many a WW2 bar is using ribbons superceded in the 1930s, for instance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 12, 2005 Author Share Posted August 12, 2005 I understand the Swedish Vasa Order was primarily a civilian award. The bar suggests some military service so can the Vasa be eliminated from consideration?Then how to sort out Italian or Persian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Saints Maurice and Lazarus is the most likely, but the Vasa did indeed show up oddly in military groups. The Persian L&S shows up more than might be expected-- Persians in Germany for training, not the other way around... all part of the :wacky" that is Monochrome Ribbon Identification.You'd think all those German Orders would help... but so far, not.Try Werner Nickel... he may have the combination on his data base. I'm still doing it the Old fashioned way... one page after weary page. (The Beer & Popsicles Diet is NOT working here. May have to buy a kiddie wading pool for the backyard.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 Where can I find this Werner Nickel?How about just hosing yourself down and letting evaporation do the cooling?Stay cool---literally and figuratively... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 We spectators still be waiting mon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 In my data base - I don't know why - the bar is named with "(zuletzt Oberst) Karl Graf von Holnstein", and even the price it has once been sold for on Ebay is written there, so I guess it has yet been identified anywhere, but I don't know when, and by whom ... PS:I was definitely NOT me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Krause Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 This bar appeared before, ID?d by me and I also had additional info about Graf Holnstein.Bob, is it Yours now??Best regardsDaniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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