Challenging the Wizards

[Bob Hunter]

OK, gentlemen, what we have here is a very impressive 11X bar in the pre-1915 style and all ribbons are identifiable except for the last three on the bar.

The third from last ribbon appears to be Romanian---Order of Michael? Star Order?

The next to last ribbon--no clue.

The last ribbon is believed to be the Italian Order of Saints Mauritius and Lazarus or the Swedish Vasa Order as both use the same ribbon. Having said that it may be impossible to nail the last ribbon down.

Edited August 10, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[Bob Hunter]

...and t'other side.

[Guest Rick Research]

Larger please. Is that next to last one silver metallic thread on the blue?

This one was never in my paws, even briefly (sniffle) and despite the range of German peacetime Orders, no luck in my Rank List flipping to date. The screwy foreign ones don't help, since I don't know what they are, and the might-be-several-things monocolors are always a "joy."

The problem with a bar like this is, barring getting lucky with the 1914 Rank List--assuming "last worn most recently"-- it involves having to search through MANY issues.

No joy in 1914. The guy was NOT a veteran of 1870, but if he joined in 1871/2, this could still date any time from 1897 to 1914. Not a naval combination, so definitely army, certainly at least a Major...

but the additional problem is the Red eagle 4 could have been left behind in wear becasue of the Crown (2nd award) and yet this guy COULD have been a General, with other awards bumped up from medal bar wear. That expands the "parameters" of who suspects are (Majors to Generals der) as well as the time period. I have nothing between 1907 and 1912, which is quite a large hole this guy COULD have added the crucial awards in... and retired, disappearing.

[Gerd Becker]

Thats an excellent piece, Bob

Can someone specify the ribbons for me please? This is, what i recognize:

1. Red-Eagle 4th class with crown (like Rick said)

2. Crown Order?

3. Centenary Medal

4. Something Hessian?

5. Saxon-Altenburg MEdal?

6. ? (damned, i know that ribbon!)

7. White Falcon?

8. Waldeck something

9. ?

10. ?

11. ?

[Tom Y]

#10 looks like a Bulgarian Military Merit Order if it's if rick's hunch is right and it's metallic thread. There's one on Detlev's site now.

[Christian L]

don't the rumanians have such blue ribbons with silver wire as well?

but anyway - great bar!

[Bob Hunter]

Gerd, this is the sequence of ribbons on the bar;

Red Eagle w/ large crown device (3/4 class)

Prussian Long Service (assuming 25 year cross)

Centennial Meda

Hessian Order of Phillip the Brave

Sax-Ernestine House Order

Sax-Weimar White Falcon Order

Waldeck House Order

Unknown-Romanian Order of Michael or Star Order?

Unknown-no clue

Unknown-Italian Order of Saints Mauritius and Lazarus or Swedish Vasa Order (I understand they used the same ribbon)

Rick, I'll have an enlargement for you as soon as I replace a couple of vacuum tubes in my scanner.

Edited August 10, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[Guest Rick Research]

It can't be a Bulgarian "war ribbon" award--that would make no sense (and the proportions are wrong) so it must be one of those ??? Rumanian things which they kept changing the ribbons for!

I am not sure what the first two of the foreign final three are, which is a big handicap in going through THOUSANDS of pages.

I'd say the Red Eagle has to be 4 with Crown because with that device on there, if it was a 3rd there would be the "bow tie" ribbon showing up from a 4th Class on it. But even so, a holder of a 4 with Crown could ALSO have had a 3 with Bow, and THAT could have moved up to a 2 with Oakleaves-- while still leaving the 4 with Crown behind. That's why this guy could be anything from a Major (no Prussian Crown Order 3rd yet) to a General der Etwas with gazillions of neck and tummy orders and these left behind of medal bar classes.

You'd think a combination like this-- either Guards or General Staff-- would LEAP off a page, but not so far.

It is waaaaaaaaay too hot and sweaty to sit greezy-fingered flipping ancient pages while chemically bonding book covers to my knees in this weather! (Schloss Rickenstein does NOT have air conditioning.)

[Gerd Becker]

Thanks, guys

[Bob Hunter]

Rick, here is my feeble attempt at enlarging the "mysterious three."

[Guest Rick Research]

So Bob, IS that silver thread in there, or some sort of weird fading?

Anybody recognize these pre-1914 ribbons as indeed Rumanian-- and if so, what ARE they?

[Bob Hunter]

It depends on the angle of the light. The weave in the gray band is such that the high points give off a near metallic reflection but I can't say there is a silver thread in there anywhere.

Pawzon available at your request.

Edited August 11, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[Bob Hunter]

While the search for the identity of the "mysterious three" continues I thought I'd post a close up of the Crown device on the RAO which is very nicely done. (Yet another reason to love Imperial)

[Bob Hunter]

A WAF Moderator has identified the ribbon third from the end as the Order of the Star of Romania. Second from the end is the Order of the Crown of Romania. And the last one is still uncertain, possibly Italian, Persian or Swedish.

[Guest Rick Research]

That's what I thought, but wasn't sure with the way the Rumanians kept changing ribbons and the German stock outfitters lagged behind on updating them. (Many a WW2 bar is using ribbons superceded in the 1930s, for instance).

[Bob Hunter]

I understand the Swedish Vasa Order was primarily a civilian award. The bar suggests some military service so can the Vasa be eliminated from consideration?

Then how to sort out Italian or Persian?

[Guest Rick Research]

Saints Maurice and Lazarus is the most likely, but the Vasa did indeed show up oddly in military groups. The Persian L&S shows up more than might be expected-- Persians in Germany for training, not the other way around... all part of the :wacky" that is Monochrome Ribbon Identification.

You'd think all those German Orders would help... but so far, not.

Try Werner Nickel... he may have the combination on his data base. I'm still doing it the Old fashioned way... one page after weary page.

(The Beer & Popsicles Diet is NOT working here. May have to buy a kiddie wading pool for the backyard.)

[Bob Hunter]

Where can I find this Werner Nickel?

How about just hosing yourself down and letting evaporation do the cooling?

Stay cool---literally and figuratively...

[Chris Boonzaier]

We spectators still be waiting mon.....

[saschaw]

In my data base - I don't know why - the bar is named with "(zuletzt Oberst) Karl Graf von Holnstein", and even the price it has once been sold for on Ebay is written there, so I guess it has yet been identified anywhere, but I don't know when, and by whom ...

PS:

I was definitely NOT me.

[Daniel Krause]

This bar appeared before, ID?d by me and I also had additional info about Graf Holnstein.

Bob, is it Yours now??

Best regards

Daniel