8 Generations of Prussians

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Brian, I hate to sound like a pedant, but it seems many use the term "Prussian" rather loosely. Being born in Stettin, for instance, would make you a Pommeranian, not a Prussian. Actually, the only people considered to be "real" Prussians were those born in East Prussia. Many would take issue with this, and be offended. My father's best friend, a company commander in Panzerjaegers, was from Magdeburg in Saxony, yet when I questioned his calling himself a Prussian, he was offended.

The von Etzels come from the Berlin area and thereby consider themselves Prussians.

The von Klingspors come from several areas of Ost Posen having established castles and large land holdings going back to the time of the Crusades. So they considered themselves Prussians.

Then people move about settle here and there but continue to serve in the Prussian Armee so they still consider themselves Prussians.

Not too loosely I don't think in this example.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

This thread really amazes me.. So many generations.. Wow. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Such proud legacy!

I wonder, did you find out if this count FM Mauritz Wilhelm von Klingspor (1744-1814) is of any relation to you? I could dig up a small history of him, if that would be helpfull...

We have Klingspor relatives in Sweden. I am not sure if the 'how' this happened and 'when' was ever established. My mother has met with them and they all seem to be secure they are related... I can't take the history earlier the late 1600's to specific individuals.

[Daniel Murphy]

I have traced my fathers family (Irish) back to 1758 here in the colonies. There was also some American Indian back before the 1750's. My aunt has traced various maternal branches of the family back to 1660's (Irish), and 1100's (English) and 1700's (German). Since I am mainly Black Irish, there is also a little Spanish dating from 1588. Just call me a Heinz 57.

Dan Murphy

Edited November 19, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[mravery]

Hey Brian,

Fantastic family history

Do you know any of the details for the earlier officer's.. i.e. Napoleonic period or US Revolutionary time. I would be curious if any of them either fought against Napoleon (perhaps at Waterloo) or were involved with the Brits during the "American campaign" in 1776 etc.

Great stuff !

Cheers

Mark

[Les]

Hey Brian,

Fantastic family history

Do you know any of the details for the earlier officer's.. i.e. Napoleonic period or US Revolutionary time. I would be curious if any of them either fought against Napoleon (perhaps at Waterloo) or were involved with the Brits during the "American campaign" in 1776 etc.

Great stuff !

Cheers

Mark

I'm not Brian...although my father's family had several family members who served as rankers during the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (for Hannover and the British), a few who were drafted into French regiments (the west bank of the Rhine was annexed by Napoleon and part of "Metropolitan France"), and one direct ancestor that served during the 1815 campaign as a member of the 4th Westphalian Landwehr (Ziethen's I Corp) at the battle of Ligny the day before Waterloo, and arrived at Waterloo at the end of the day taking part in the pursuit of the defeated French forces falling back towards France and Paris.

Les

Edited November 27, 2005 by Les

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

As for my family, I have to say I was greatly relieved, as I am a very proud American, to learn more of history and discover it was the Hessians who were defeated soundly at Trenton in 1776. I doubt Prussians would have fared any better in the dead of winter with a surprise attack across a river with floating ice that could have crushed the small craft coming across. A brilliant victory coming at the expense of the Hessians from an American general who to this time had had a few more defeats against him in New York but brought his reputation back with one hugely symbolic victory against the "dreaded Hessians."

[VtwinVince]

Let's not forget the contribution of von Steuben to the revolutionary forces. Brian, being a Berliner made you a Berliner, not a Prussian, something which the Berliners are very proud of. I think a certain president once summed it up, "Ich bin auch ein Berliner". My grandfather was originally from Friedenau, and considered himself a "transplanted" Prussian by virtue of marrying into an East Prussian Junker family.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

My most immediate relatives the von Klingspors moved to Hildesheim after he retired as Kommander Fortress Magdeburg.

The von Etzels, most immediately, from Wiesbaden.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[VtwinVince]

Brian, the Magdeburg connection is interesting, as I believe the regiments from this garrison town considered themselves more "Prussian" than the Prussians, although technically they were Saxons. My great-grandfather was also a Magdeburger, before transplanting himself to Berlin, and was the architect responsible for the Hindenburg-Kaserne, or barracks, in that city. There was, and to a certain extent still, exists a curious regionalism in Germany, with the southern states still regarding anything Prussian with disdain. I think this dates back to the wars of unification, when Bismarck literally pressganged many states into siding with Prussia, or risk facing severe consequences.

[Les]

.............There was, and to a certain extent still, exists a curious regionalism in Germany, with the southern states still regarding anything Prussian with disdain. I think this dates back to the wars of unification, when Bismarck literally pressganged many states into siding with Prussia, or risk facing severe consequences.

"Vince"

You're correct that regionalism still isn't dead in Germany, and modern (western) Germans look down their noses at the "Ossis." A great many "Berliners" have ancestors, or even many current one, who left Silesia for "greener pastures". Also, let's not forget that -many- Germans from the eastern part of the "Reich" left their homes a step or two ahead of the Russian army in 1944/45, and subsequently settled in the west. It's interesting how names that used to be indicators of the geographic origins of where Germans were from, has been blurred by refugess or immigration.

In the context of Germany before 1945, the term "Saupreuss" comes to mind... It's fallen out of use these days, but that doesn't mean a German wouldn't know what it meant if someone called them one.

Regional atagonism towards Prussia is probably a bit earlier than the Bismarck era. During the troubles of 1848, with the rebellions/uprisings in various states, there was some interest in unification of -all- German speakers, meaning that even Austria should be part of a "Greater Germany." The debate over whether there should be a "greater Germany" (all German states and including Austria) or a "lesser Germany" (all German states but without Austria) was a decision made by Bismarck, and implemented by Prussia, rather than any consideration of the rest of the German states thought about unification and the form of government that a unified state would take.

Prussia and it's monarchy was interested in maintaing it's own national interests above all other states, and the King refused to consider any offer from the Frankfurt assembly of an Imperial crown, preferring to "take" power rather than being "granted" power from the masses. Inclusion of Austria was a considerable problem for the Prussians, who realized that allowing "Austria" (pre "KuK" days) and "equal" representation would have resulted in Prussia being stuck in a passenger seat rather than driver's role in the development of any future unificed "Germany."

The Prussian attitude of "our way or the highway" caused a considerable amount of resentment, particularly when hardball politics of ramming Prussian interests down the throats of other states who collectively outnumbered "Prussia".

The matter of cultural and regional differences in the German past and present isn't particularly related to the topic matter of this forum, but is a definite part of how Germans see not only the world, their neighbors, but themselves and even how they define what they were and are, as a nation.

Les

[David Gregory]

In the context of Germany before 1945, the term "Saupreuss" comes to mind... It's fallen out of use these days, but that doesn't mean a German wouldn't know what it meant if someone called them one.

Please be assured that the term "Saupreuss" (or "Saupreiss" depending the dialect) is still very much alive and well in the south of Germany.

Despite the legacy of post-1945 displaced persons and the fact that freedom of movement in Germany means that many people live and work in other parts of the country, regional origins and accents are still important aspects of popular humour (yes, some Germans do have a sense of humour) and "foreigners" (e.g. Saxons in the Ruhrgebiet, Wessies in the east or northeners in the south) still stand out like a sore thumb.

I recently attended a conference where a presentation was given by a speaker from India, whose English is impeccable. The German participants, even the majority whose command of English is very good, all scrambled for their headsets and listened to the translation provided by the interpreters, as the Indian speaker has such a strong accent that it is sometimes difficult to know what he is talking about.

When a Saxon sales manager took the floor to give his presentation in German, a few of his colleagues from Baden-W?rttemberg made a show about using their headsets to listen to the English translation provided by the interpreters (for those of you not familiar with it, this is an example of German humour).

[VtwinVince]

Les, what you have to say is fascinating, and topical. My father and his family arrived from Koenigsberg, via Cottbus, in the Rhineland in 1945, and were regarded with derision by other members of the family with whom they sought refuge, being as they were "Saupreussen" and more mouths to feed. This prompted my father to emigrate here in 1952, since the western part of Germany was anything but "home".

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

The replies are interesting. I'm hearing some very depressing stories never before related to me by relatives regarding the winter of 1945 and 1946. If you both have relatives to talk to, ask them about the hardships of this time. I was horribly shocked. That such people could be brought to such dreadful depths was beyond belief.

[Les]

Brian,

The aftermath of both wars resulted in hardships depending on not only what region of Germany people lived in, but whether they happened to live in large cities, smaller towns, or the country-side, and also how many family members were missing/dead, or being held in post war Allied military compounds.

My father came from the Saar (Sankt Ingbert, now about 20 kms from Saarbruecken and the current French border). After WWI, the Saar was turned over to the French for a 15 year period as part of post war reparations (coal mines were an important resource and ruthlessly exploited, and the coal shipped to France with little being allocated for local use), and occupied by French troops and ruled by them through martial law. Farmers and small town residents had easier access to food and small markets than people living in larger towns. This situation was true of the 1914-18 war time era, and also during. and in the immediate aftermath of WWII.

The post WWI French occupation at times tended towards heavy-handedness. For example, labor strikes at times were met with direct reprisal by the French military and strikers or dissidents shot down in the streets, newspapers closed, etc..

The aftermath of WWI wasn't all that bad, but not particularly a cake walk. There are letters from some of the family to other kin, describing post war conditions, but nothing particularly bad. Economic conditions throughout Europe in late 1918-1920 weren't all that great, and the subsequent bank collapses, inflationary period (1921-22) that ruined the economy, and a series of national and then a later international depression were problems that the more than the Germans experienced.

The aftermath of WWII however, was/is different. My family, living in the west near the French border, were occupied by the French -again-. The French rounded up German POWs, used them for working on French roads, repairing or clearing war damage, etc. Some of the male work force (in all parts of Germany) were years getting home.. The British tried to demobilize Germans within weeks or a few months of the wars end, the Americans took a bit longer, the French a couple of years in some cases, and the Russians...well, many never came home, and some were still in Russian captivity for ten years.

Economic conditions in Germany varied, depending on whether people lived in large cities (everything was scarce, most public utilities were often non-existent or bombed out), small towns (some war damage but ofset by the nearness of small markets, etc), or country-side/farmers were produce was grown locally, and farmers had usually had enough to eat because they produced their own crops, herds, etc.

In the winter of 1945/46, labor was scarce, and fuel for the winter was in short supply. In the Saar, locals could get small amounts of fuel from the local mines, but had to haul it by hand since transportation was in short supply. Food was also, since wartime rationing practices were continued during the Allied (French) occupation, and food shipped to Europe by the western Allies went to help the "Allied" civilian populations before the Germans got anything. Post war shipping priorities usually meant the Germans got little or nothing from the Allied occupation forces.

My father came to the US before WWII, as the result of a family dispute over some property, and he left "home" for a variety of reasons. He was born in 1915, and he was old enough to have been conscripted for WWII service, and considering German losses during the war, he probably wouldn't have survived the entire war. Two of his cousins (about the same age as he was) were mobilized in 1938. One served as a Pioneer e.m, rising to a commissioned rank, and survived the war and spent two years in a French POW cage after 1945. The other cousin served in the infantry from 1939, and was killed three weeks before the end of the war in the Colmar pocket, not far from home.

My great granfather owned Germany's third largest bottle making plant and when he died in 1929, employed 250 people. The plant survived until 1942, when badly placed Allied bombs completely destroyed the plant. The plant meant my family had a certain economic status (and also with and in the "party"), that came to an end with the war.

My father and mother were in the US during the war, and through an exchange of letters, realized that there was a considerable need for clothing, food, and many other things. What my parents could do, was send clothing, non-perishable food supplies, and other items in family "care packages." At the time, they didn't know how important those parcels from family were.

My mother told me about sending a tan colored coat she bought for my father, that he hated and woulnd't wear. She also sent a canned ham, and some other items in the same parcel. Years later, when I was visiting with my father's cousin Gisella, she mentioned that shortly after the war, she received a coat from her mother (my father's aunt) that she died dark blue, altered to fit, and wore during the next several winters. The coat was the only warm thing she had. I realized where the coat came from, and that it was my fathers...somethign he cast off, but meant a great deal to her.

The ham in the same package....she recalled her mother making a meal of ham and (rationed) potatoes for Christmas 1945, and years later could recall how it filled the house with the smell of a good meal in grim times, with no fuel, most of the men who went to war either dead or still in POW camps. She said that even to this day, the smell of cooked ham and potatoes brings back a special memory in her mind, and the thought of a familie's love.

My family lived/lives in a small town on the outskirts of a large city, and while things were rough, they got by with the help of care packages, and the good fortune of my father having left the "Heimat" before getting caught up in WWII, and consequently, was able to help the rest of the family out when the war ended. Many Germans were not so foturnate.

Many former east Germans were re-settled in the Saar after WWII, and I know of many small villages that prior to 1945, had less than a couple of hundred people living in them. Today, those same villages are surrounded by modern housing tracts and the population in some of these towns in upwards of a thousand or more. If you visit the old cemetaries and look at the names (which are good indicators of regionalism by the way, since names in the past were good indicators of what part of Germany people came from) of those buried there since WWII, there are plenty of "Ossis" and other folk who have "settled" in the West for ever.

There's more stories, and I'm certain the German nationals on this list have their share of stories they could tell about their own families.

Les

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Les, was a wonderfully told story. Very good. I think you have probably summed up what most went through in variation. My mother was a Nachrichten Helferin. After the war she worked for the allies in Signals, a real plum job. It did NOT provide her with ANYTHING to bring to her parents however.

She has a bracelet her mother wore that belonged to her brother, a 7th Kurassier who died young. It has several dings in it that my mother remembers coming from her mother with a small hatchet would go into bombed out homes and hatchet out wood whereever it peeked through for fuel. My mother also remembers walking past one of the Allied buildings which had large deposits of coal stacked near the service entrance to feed the furnaces. She, at the risk of her job, would carefully pick up a couple of nasty dirty pieces and stick them into her coat and take them to her parents.

[Sal Williams]

Very interesting fellows! Brian, I knew you had history but never knew it was so extensive! You were doomed to be a collector from birth! Have you posted your family awards etc. anywhere? As a poor bastard child my history is kind of murky I did scrounge up a few pics of my hungarian ancestors that Rick and Glenn shed light on from WWI. How did the "von' get bestowed? Who gives the title out?I have no idea how that worked. my crazy grandmother kept trying to put von in thier name but the family wasn't having any of it Really neat to see such a well documented and important family. Perhaps you could give us a small history of each one that you know about. I am sure many of us would be interested!

best, Sal

Edited December 2, 2005 by Sal Williams

[Sal Williams]

Brian, How did you guys end up in the USA?

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

The Nachrichten Helferin married an American pilot stationed in Wiesbaden.

[Sal Williams]

I figured it must be around that era! So is that dad or grandad?

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

My dad. I don't want to answer too much detail. I got myself in huge trouble with people on WAF and I'm a little gun shy after that. You don't tell RK collectors your great-uncle was an RK winner. They do not accept it. It's not possible. I could never have met his wife, my cousin. It's simply not possible that her son was a vet held in Russia for MANY years and a Wehrmacht officer with his own awards on the Eastern Front. NOT POSSIBLE! So, PLEASE, call me a liar, but please not to my face here on the web. It REALLY upsets me.

[Sal Williams]

My dad. I don't want to answer too much detail. I got myself in huge trouble with people on WAF and I'm a little gun shy after that. You don't tell RK collectors your great-uncle was an RK winner. They do not accept it. It's not possible. I could never have met his wife, my cousin. It's simply not possible that her son was a vet held in Russia for MANY years and a Wehrmacht officer with his own awards on the Eastern Front. NOT POSSIBLE! So, PLEASE, call me a liar, but please not to my face here on the web. It REALLY upsets me.

I missed all that!!! Tell tell!!!!!!

[Sal Williams]

The chronology confused me there. Your great uncle was the RK winner? or the cousins son? You are used to thinking in these relation ways but it is confusing to me

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

The chronology confused me there. Your great uncle was the RK winner? or the cousins son? You are used to thinking in these relation ways but it is confusing to me

Well I'm not exactly sure what to call them either. The mother of the RK winner was the daughter of my grandfather's brother, a von Etzel. The RK winner's son served with him just a few miles away from Stalingrad and was also captured but survived the horrors of a prisoner of war camp. My mother considers the son her "cousin".

Here you go, first time ever presented, the mother and father of a future RK winner who would tragically die in Stalingrad. I will only say the mother is a von Etzel.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Sal Williams]

Yes I think your mother is right! I think that makes you his cousin once removed? The RK winner died? His son who was also in Stalingrad survived (but was not an RK winner?). The son was a Russian prisoner? Very complicated! You must start at the beginning! Start with the oldest know realation

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Ha! Post #1, top left, oldest relation with picture, won the von!

Top, second from right, is grandfather of RK winner. One of HIS sons was the father of the daughter above!

Yes, RK winner died in Stalingrad.

I always thought of him as an Uncle because his grandfather was my mother's uncle who she was very close to.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Brian von Etzel