bavaria MVO 4th class

[Noor]

Hi,

And here is one my favorite Imperial germany orden - Milit?r-Verdienstorden mit Schwertern IV. Klasse.

But I have same question like before, how many aprox. those ordens awarded?

[Claudio]

Hi Noor,

Here are the numbers which were given to me by a friend of mine:

Milit?rverdienstorden, Gro?kreuz mit Krone und Schwertern: 1

Milit?rverdienstorden, Gro?kreuz 4

Milit?rverdienstorden, Gro?kreuz mit Schwertern: 66

Milit?rverdienstorden, 1. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern 2

Milit?rverdienstorden, 1. Klasse: 3

Milit?rverdienstorden, 1. Klasse mit Schwertern: 103

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse Stern mit Krone Schwertern: 2

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse Stern: 4

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse Stern mit Schwertern: 223

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse: 7

Milit?rverdienstorden, 2. Klasse mit Schwerter: 304

Milit?rverdienstorden, Offizierkreuz: 7

Milit?rverdienstorden, Offizierkreuz mit Schwertern: 180

Milit?rverdienstorden, 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 450

Milit?rverdienstorden, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 750

Milit?rverdienstorden, 4. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 3?000

Milit?rverdienstorden, 4. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 24?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 1. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 175

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 1. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 700

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 3?800

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 2. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 15?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: ca. 73?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 290?000

Maybe, because of the growing knowledge on these orders, some of these figures can be corrected by some enthustiast researcher who might have some more precise data on it.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Noor]

Thanks Claudio for information!

[Yankee]

Hi Claudio

Any possibility that you could find out the number issued for the knight 1st class & knight 2nd class (1866 1905)

Sincerely

Yankee

[Bernd D]

Hi Claudio

Any possibility that you could find out the number issued for the knight 1st class & knight 2nd class (1866 1905)

Sincerely

Yankee

It were about 1.500 knight 1st and 2.500 knight 2nd class.

[Yankee]

It were about 1.500 knight 1st and 2.500 knight 2nd class.

Hi Bernd D

Thanks a lot for the info, any chance you would have an idea in how many were awarded ( knight 1st & 2nd class ) for the Franco-Prussian War? Not having all the info on the early makers are there any clear cut ways to distinguish an early 1866 era made piece to a later 1905 era made example?

Sincerely

Yankee

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Claudio,

thanks for the info! Do you know the source?

Thanks

Chris

[Wild Card]

Hi Yankee,

Following are a few factoids courtesy of Jorg Nimmergut?s magnum opus.

1. The knight 1st class badge apparently is identical to what we know as the 1905-1918 3rd class cross.

2. From 1866 t0 1875 there were 431 awards of the knight 1st class, including 157 to ?foreigners?.

3. The knight 2nd class badge would be the same as #1 above, but without the flames between the arms.

4. From 1866 t0 1875 there were 1,608 awards of the knight 2nd class, including 299 to ?foreigners?.

I hope that this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Edited June 8, 2007 by Wild Card

[Claudio]

@ Chris: as I told in my posting, I got this information from a collector. I don't know what were his sources of information, but I suppose he just gathered all this information bit by bit through the years also from other collectors. In Germany there are lots of Bayern-Collectors. I am sure you know a couple as well, since you live in Germany.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Dave Danner]

Hi Bernd D

Thanks a lot for the info, any chance you would have an idea in how many were awarded ( knight 1st & 2nd class ) for the Franco-Prussian War? Not having all the info on the early makers are there any clear cut ways to distinguish an early 1866 era made piece to a later 1905 era made example?

Sincerely

Yankee

In 1870 and 1871 there were the following awards:

• Grosskreuz: at least 5 to Bavarians; 16 to Prussians (1 of whom was the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
• Grosskomturkreuz: at least 14 to Bavarians; 25 Prussians, 1 Saxon
• Komturkreuz: at least 31 to Bavarians; 80 Prussians, 4 Saxons, 1 Badener, 1 Hessian, 1 W?rttemberger
• Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse: at least 208 to Bavarians; 112 Prussians, 1 Saxon, 3 Badeners, 3 Hessians, 5 W?rttembergers, 1 Dutch, 1 American
• Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse: at least 1175 to Bavarians; 245 Prussians, 1 Saxon, 1 Badener, 2 Hessians, 1 W?rttemberger, 1 Mecklenburger, 2 Americans, 3 English, 1 Canadian

The "at least" is because I am missing one of the Armee-Befehle from December 1870. Most likely, based on the trend in other Armee-Befehle, there were about another 1 Grosskomtur, 2-3 Komtur, 20-25 Ritter 1.Klasse, and 100-150 Ritter 2.Klasse.

Also note that in some cases "Prussian" included other states. In all cases, Anhalters, Thuringians, Hamburgers, etc. were included among Prussian Army awards. In a few cases, the Bavarians did not distinguish other states among the North German Confederation states (I noted at least one GR 89 officer, so likely a Mecklenburger, among a Prussian list).

The non-Germans were all doctors.

[Bernd D]

In 1870 and 1871 there were the following awards:

• Grosskreuz: at least 5 to Bavarians; 16 to Prussians (1 of whom was the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
• Grosskomturkreuz: at least 14 to Bavarians; 25 Prussians, 1 Saxon
• Komturkreuz: at least 31 to Bavarians; 80 Prussians, 4 Saxons, 1 Badener, 1 Hessian, 1 W?rttemberger
• Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse: at least 208 to Bavarians; 112 Prussians, 1 Saxon, 3 Badeners, 3 Hessians, 5 W?rttembergers, 1 Dutch, 1 American
• Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse: at least 1175 to Bavarians; 245 Prussians, 1 Saxon, 1 Badener, 2 Hessians, 1 W?rttemberger, 1 Mecklenburger, 2 Americans, 3 English, 1 Canadian

The "at least" is because I am missing one of the Armee-Befehle from December 1870. Most likely, based on the trend in other Armee-Befehle, there were about another 1 Grosskomtur, 2-3 Komtur, 20-25 Ritter 1.Klasse, and 100-150 Ritter 2.Klasse.

Dave,

your list is nearly perfect. Some are missing, that is true. But your figures are a little bit mixed up. You make no distinction between awards for war merit and civilian merit. Both types were awarded between 1870 and 1873. As far as I know the Armeebefehl just listed them all without distinction. Those who got it for war merit could apply for swords after 1892 the others not.

Bernd

[Dave Danner]

Dave,

your list is nearly perfect. Some are missing, that is true. But your figures are a little bit mixed up. You make no distinction between awards for war merit and civilian merit. Both types were awarded between 1870 and 1873. As far as I know the Armeebefehl just listed them all without distinction. Those who got it for war merit could apply for swords after 1892 the others not.

Bernd

I included them all because in most cases there is no real way to distinguish. They were almost all for bravery or distinguished conduct, whether awarded to civilians or military personnel. There were a few which were for general military merit, of the kind for which the order was routinely awarded before 1914.

A typical example of a mix of civilian and military awardees:

[Dave Danner]

The non-Bavarian ones are even vaguer:

[Bernd D]

I included them all because in most cases there is no real way to distinguish. They were almost all for bravery or distinguished conduct, whether awarded to civilians or military personnel. There were a few which were for general military merit, of the kind for which the order was routinely awarded before 1914.

Just for example the knight 2nd class.

In 1870 and 1871:

1411 war decorations (swords)

107 decorations for general military merit.

That is about 7% of the total.

It is a mess, I know. You can?t see it on the medal bar, certificate or Armeebefehl.

[Yankee]

Just for example the knight 2nd class.

In 1870 and 1871:

1411 war decorations (swords)

107 decorations for general military merit.

That is about 7% of the total.

It is a mess, I know. You can?t see it on the medal bar, certificate or Armeebefehl.

Thank you Gentlemen for all your kindness in sharing such detailed information, fascinating to learn so many were awarded to foreigners especially Americans and a Canadian Does somebody know how that came about ( Americans awarded ) Was it mandatory ( recall ) that the veterans put swords above their cross after 1891 or was it at their pleasure? I understand from a collector friend who helpfully pointed out that many were done by local jewelers ( swords added on ) would any ever be done by a court jeweler?

Most Sincerely

Yankee

[Dave Danner]

These are the awards to Americans, British and Canadians, from Verordnungs-Blatt No. 32 of 14 May 1871:

[Bernd D]

These are the awards to Americans, British and Canadians, from Verordnungs-Blatt No. 32 of 14 May 1871:

Dave,

They all got the decorations for general military merit.

But Dr. P. Frank, British, got the knight 2. Class war decoration in 1871.

Yankee,

After 1892, all veterans of the 1866 and 1870/71 wars who got their decoration for war merit could apply for wearing swords. Afterwards they went to a jeweller to order them. So all swords are looking a bit different. The awards handed out for China 1900/01 were the first once with homogeneous swords.

The first decoration with swords was awarded in 1893. And for the first time you could read ?Kriegsverdienst? on the certificate.

Bernd

[Dave Danner]

Dave,

They all got the decorations for general military merit.

But Dr. P. Frank, British, got the knight 2. Class war decoration in 1871.

Bernd

Do you have the date for Dr. Frank? I must have missed him. The only other non-German I have is the Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse to the Dutch Dr. J.E. de Voogt on 27 May 1871.

[Bernd D]

Do you have the date for Dr. Frank? I must have missed him. The only other non-German I have is the Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse to the Dutch Dr. J.E. de Voogt on 27 May 1871.

Dr. Frank got it 7 March 1871. Dr. Voogt got it for general military merit.

[Yankee]

Dave,

They all got the decorations for general military merit.

But Dr. P. Frank, British, got the knight 2. Class war decoration in 1871.

Yankee,

After 1892, all veterans of the 1866 and 1870/71 wars who got their decoration for war merit could apply for wearing swords. Afterwards they went to a jeweller to order them. So all swords are looking a bit different. The awards handed out for China 1900/01 were the first once with homogeneous swords.

The first decoration with swords was awarded in 1893. And for the first time you could read ?Kriegsverdienst? on the certificate.

Bernd

Hi Bernd

Thanks for that now the hard part begins, finding a knight 1st class from an early maker before the swords were put on since the recipient died during the 1870/71 war.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Eric Gaumann]

Milit?rverdienstorden, 4. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 24?000

Milit?rverdienstkreuz, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern: ca. 290?000

Claudio

I've wondered for years why the "MVK" 4th class was worth so much more than the 3rd class. Now I see it; it's not the MVK4 it's the MVO4.

One more hurdle cleared before reaching my goal of omnipotence.