Small Collection of 1870 groups

[dante]

Small collection of 1870 groups welcome your views and if possible research potential, thanks, Paul

[dante]

Small collection of 1870 groups welcome your views and if possible research potential, thanks, Paul

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[Paul R]

The 1870 bars(and earlier) are my favorite. I am a bit jealous of the EK2 bar! Thanks for sharing your wonderful collection!

[Dave Danner]

Rick has posted a sticky with the battle bars by corps here: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3794

The combination of bars on the first medal bar, along with the Bavarian 1866, points to a member of II. Bavarian Army Corps. I don't think you can narrow it further. Was the Centenary Medal given to all Bavarian veterans?

On the second, Belfort would seem to indicate one of the reserve divisions that served there. The 25 year oaks, but no Centenary Medal, would place the bar between 1895 and 1897.

The last is a bit odd. Strassburg credit went to the Baden Feld-Division, the Garde-Landwehr-Division, and the 1. Reserve-Division. There is no Baden Felddienstauszeichnung, and none of the Baden regiments fought at Bapaume. So it is likely form either the Garde-Landwehr-Division or the 1. Reserve-Division. Unfortunately, the Ruhmeshalle unserer alten Armee doesn't give 1870/71 campaign credits for reserve or Landwehr units, and the account of Bapaume in Niemann's history of the war doesn't mention these units. Maybe some other source on Bapaume might have a more detailed order of battle.

[dante]

Rick has posted a sticky with the battle bars by corps here: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3794

The combination of bars on the first medal bar, along with the Bavarian 1866, points to a member of II. Bavarian Army Corps. I don't think you can narrow it further. Was the Centenary Medal given to all Bavarian veterans?

On the second, Belfort would seem to indicate one of the reserve divisions that served there. The 25 year oaks, but no Centenary Medal, would place the bar between 1895 and 1897.

The last is a bit odd. Strassburg credit went to the Baden Feld-Division, the Garde-Landwehr-Division, and the 1. Reserve-Division. There is no Baden Felddienstauszeichnung, and none of the Baden regiments fought at Bapaume. So it is likely form either the Garde-Landwehr-Division or the 1. Reserve-Division. Unfortunately, the Ruhmeshalle unserer alten Armee doesn't give 1870/71 campaign credits for reserve or Landwehr units, and the account of Bapaume in Niemann's history of the war doesn't mention these units. Maybe some other source on Bapaume might have a more detailed order of battle.

Dave, thanks, can you recommend a good book on the Franco-Prussian wars that has an order of battle , Paul

[Dave Danner]

Dave, thanks, can you recommend a good book on the Franco-Prussian wars that has an order of battle , Paul

I'm not sure about regular books with detailed orbats.

If you can access Google Books (I know continental Europeans can't, but I'm not sure about Britain), the English translation of August Niemann's military history of the war is here: http://books.google.com/books?id=9Y4GAAAAQAAJ

Edited June 14, 2007 by Dave Danner

[zook]

Very nice groups! - I am jealous of the EK2 set.. thanks for sharing!!

Dan

[dante]

I'm not sure about regular books with detailed orbats.

If you can access Google Books (I know continental Europeans can't, but I'm not sure about Britain), the English translation of August Niemann's military history of the war is here: http://books.google.com/books?id=9Y4GAAAAQAAJ

Is this any good "New two-volume military history of the Franco-Prussian War, Quintin Barry presents a detailed account of the war against the French Imperial Army waged by the armies of the German Confederation, directed by that supreme military mind, Helmuth von Moltke. The author places Moltke and his strategic planning in the context of the European balance of power following the ending of the Austria Prussian War of 1866, before exploring the initial mobilisation and deployment of the armies in 1870. All of the battles of this opening round of the war are described in detail, including Weissenburg, Worth, Spicheren, Borny-Colombey, Mars la Tour, Gravelotte, Beaumont and, of course, Sedan.

The book ends as the Second Empire of Napoleon III lies defeated, crushed by the German armies directed by von Moltke. The author has made full use of an extensive number of German and French language sources. His detailed text is accompanied by a number of black and white illustrations and battle maps. Orders of battle are also provided. 480 pages c. 90 ills. & maps ?32.50

untitled.bmp

[Dave Danner]

I only wish this one had battle bars to narrow it down further. Based on the combination of a D?ppeler Sturmkreuz from 1864 and an Erinnerungskreuz "K?niggr?tz" from 1866, it should be limited it to the following units:

Stab, I. Bataillon and II. Bataillon / 3. Garde-Regiment zu Fuss

I. Bataillon and II. Bataillon / Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 3

I. Bataillon, II. Bataillon, and 12. Kompanie / Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 4

J?ger-Bataillon Nr. 7

1. Garde-Feldartillerie-Regiment

and possibly someone from Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 11 (elements of that regiment also qualified for the Alsen-Kreuz)

[Dave Danner]

Is this any good "New two-volume military history of the Franco-Prussian War, Quintin Barry presents a detailed account of the war against the French Imperial Army waged by the armies of the German Confederation, directed by that supreme military mind, Helmuth von Moltke. The author places Moltke and his strategic planning in the context of the European balance of power following the ending of the Austria Prussian War of 1866, before exploring the initial mobilisation and deployment of the armies in 1870. All of the battles of this opening round of the war are described in detail, including Weissenburg, Worth, Spicheren, Borny-Colombey, Mars la Tour, Gravelotte, Beaumont and, of course, Sedan.

The book ends as the Second Empire of Napoleon III lies defeated, crushed by the German armies directed by von Moltke. The author has made full use of an extensive number of German and French language sources. His detailed text is accompanied by a number of black and white illustrations and battle maps. Orders of battle are also provided. 480 pages c. 90 ills. & maps ?32.50

That description sounds like only that of Volume I, as it ends at Sedan. You'd need both volumes. I haven't seen them, so I don't know how detailed they are.

[dante]

That description sounds like only that of Volume I, as it ends at Sedan. You'd need both volumes. I haven't seen them, so I don't know how detailed they are.

Zook, Paul , thanks....Dave great group, why did some 1870s have bars and others not

[Dave Danner]

Zook, Paul , thanks....Dave great group, why did some 1870s have bars and others not

I don't know. Probably because if you were out of the military, you had to pay for them yourself. Or maybe the person didn't feel it necessary to jazz up the bar any more.

[saschaw]

Dante, could you please show a bigger picture of the Iron Cross 1870? I'm not sure if I like what I see ...

[dante]

Dante, could you please show a bigger picture of the Iron Cross 1870? I'm not sure if I like what I see ...

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[dante]

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[Paul R]

That poor ribbon

[saschaw]

And poor dante. The Iron Cross is a modern fake using an old frame with a faked core, in my humble opinion ...

[dante]

And poor dante. The Iron Cross is a modern fake using an old frame with a faked core, in my humble opinion ...

No probs, but can you point out your reasons, thanks, Paul

[dante]

No probs, but can you point out your reasons, thanks, Paul

By the way its a K?nigliches M?nzamt Orden

[saschaw]

By the way its a K?nigliches M?nzamt Orden

Now that's actually "almost" the clue: the awarded ones were not maker marked, none of those. There exist, of course, many private purchase pieces from 1870s to at least WWI era, but those usually are looking other than those, which are frequently offered on Ebay by persons I wouldn't buy anything from ...

These fakes were raised by a German collector on a German Forum. I thougt I had some comparison pictures but cannot find these at the moment. If some else please might help?! Sorry again, but it isn't my fault - if I'm right at all ...