My latest Bavarian M.V.O. Kreuz, I Class with Crown.

[Stogieman]

If I am following this correctly, it would seem that original crosses do not have white enamel in the loops of the "buckle" at the bottom of the enameled ring around the center chiffre?

I have had only one of this grade over the years, perhaps that's a telling fact in and of itself. here's an enlarged photo that shows the area concerned. I apologize for the poor quality, it is a very old photo.

[Dave Danner]

I have none of my own, only 2nd and 3rd Classes. The two which I have illustrated belong to forum member Claudio O. It was mentioned to me at one time by Sascha Zimmermann that there might be issues with some of the crosses, but what the specific issues were I wasn't told. Here are the two, which I can't really tell based on the images if they have the enamel issue.

[Dave Danner]

I also have this 2nd Class with Swords. I don't have any specific issues with the cross, but I've never seen uniface swords on a Bavarian MVO/MVK.

[medalnet]

Saschaw thanks for making us aware, really disgusting somebody is taking 4th class examples and turning them into 3rd class, destroying the badge in the process. Can any member post an orginal gilded 3rd class piece so the newer collectors don't get burned.

This may help: two MVO's on medal bars. Both 4th class with crown and swords in silver gilt:

left MVO 3 Silver gilt - right MVO 4 with gold center

MVO 3 Silver gilt

Edited August 17, 2007 by medalnet

[landsknechte]

In regards to this, or any other field of historical inquiry, a supposition made without any evidence is useless. A little "scientific method", por favor.

[Franken75]

This may help: two MVO's on medal bars. Both 4th class with crown and swords in silver gilt:

I`m sure you mean one third class with crown and swords in silver gilt (beauty)

and one 4th class with crown with front med. made out of gold (also beauty)

A very nice Spange

[Franken75]

If I am following this correctly, it would seem that original crosses do not have white enamel in the loops of the "buckle" at the bottom of the enameled ring around the center chiffre?

I have had only one of this grade over the years, perhaps that's a telling fact in and of itself. here's an enlarged photo that shows the area concerned. I apologize for the poor quality, it is a very old photo.

You may not forget, that only some of the the rebuilded third classes have that white enamel in the loops of the buckle at the bottom of the enameled ring around the center. If a bad person will take a second class and only gilt it then you have a very nice looking center

[militaria0815]

In regards to this, or any other field of historical inquiry, a supposition made without any evidence is useless. A little "scientific method", por favor.

With all due respect, why do you assume that there were suppositions made? What is useless in your eyes reflects the high knowledge of very highly specialized collectors and their scientific work. Assuming that there is no scientific method is impudence. You do not know the other forum members, their collections, knowledge and reputation.

You expect a scientific elaboration, then you might trust the statements or maybe not. This is not what you may expect from a forum. For most members collecting is a hobby and they do not have the time to write books or articles in medal journals.

Nevertheless they have the experience and knowledge to judge whether a medal which is part of their special field is a fake or not.

You should think about all that, gracias!

[Franken75]

I`m sure you mean one third class with crown and swords in silver gilt (beauty)

and one 4th class with crown with front med. made out of gold (also beauty)

A very nice Spange

Not to forget the foto under the Spange with the two MVOs, this is also a nice example of a 3.Class with crown and swords(silver gilt) also made by Hemmerle the same type like on the Spange with the two MVOs.

[medalnet]

I`m sure you mean one third class with crown and swords in silver gilt (beauty)

and one 4th class with crown with front med. made out of gold (also beauty)

A very nice Spange

Both 3rd classes are Silver gilt!

[Ulsterman]

A most interesting thread and useful thread.

It has been well known that BMVK3s have been upgraded for @20 years or so now. Sidney Vernon noted as much in 1994 as did ORDEN before that. I did not know about the "buckle flaw" though.

Given the extremely low numbers of these that were awarded I have always wondered about the scores of them that I have seen about. There certainly seems to be a marked quality difference.

I would love to know the name of the chap who is "remaking" these.

When is the book due out? Who is the publisher?

Edited August 16, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Yankee]

This may help: two MVO's on medal bars. Both 4th class with crown and swords in silver gilt:

Thanks very much Andreas for posting those beautiful zoomed MVO examples. Should be OK now to know the difference from a good one and a forgery.

Sincerely

Brian

[sammlerchris1]

Sorry Gentlemen,

all MVK 1.Kl. m. Kr. u. Schw. in this thread are FAKES.

And don?t ask for pictures from an original. I?m not owner of

any from the 170 pieces.

But ownership and knowledge are two different pieces.

Regards,

Chris

PS.: Andreas (medalnet)

Very nice MVO?s!!!!! Thank?s for showing.

[Franken75]

Both 3rd classes are Silver gilt!

With" front med. made out of gold" I meant of course the 4. Class with crown from the Preussen Spange.

[Alex K]

Sorry Gentlemen,

all MVK 1.Kl. m. Kr. u. Schw. in this thread are FAKES.

And don?t ask for pictures from an original. I?m not owner of

any from the 170 pieces.

But ownership and knowledge are two different pieces.

Regards,

Chris

Isn't life getting complicated

[militaria0815]

Isn't life getting complicated

It always has been!!

[Ulsterman]

Is ist funny

franken75 knows, others not

By the way, I think this is rude.

There is a language factor here, so 'Collectingchris' I think probably did not intend to be rude and I for one, would give him the benefit of the doubt....but this is a forum for GENTLEFOLK, and I am certain that the moderators, the sorts of people who once made me stand at attention for 2 hours straight (with a pack and wool beret on) in the pouring-down, winter rain at Colchester, will not allow rudeness here.

This is a most informative thread and I am grateful for it.

Robert E. Lee, a great man who fought for a bad cause, once said: "A gentleman never intentionally causes another any offense". It's good advice in the anonymous world of cyberspace and keeps many different sorts of people on a friendly footing.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Alex K]

I thought ling before posting this, however, here goes, I have also watched this thread with great interest. I was after all, the first to congratulate Kevin on a nice acquisition. As it transpires from later postings, other members cast doubt on the authenticity of the piece in question, without, as Kevin originally pointed out, any corroborative evidence, just a general blanket statement. My knowledge of this award is limited and the two examples I have, have been verified as authentic. I together with many other members are more than happy to learn from others about items in their collection, with informative comments and information which can be proven, after all most of us have at some stage bought a ?lemon?. That being said, tempers have been raised in a number of postings which as Rick Research, Chris Boonzaier and Stogieman have pointed out, detract from the general ethos of this particular forum, and that is, that it is conducted in a friendly and gentlemanly way, with exchange of information which in the end benefits all. The following comments I illustrate by example as being unhelpful

"I am able to understand your English as well as your good old aunt was able to understand it!

And I would bet that you will get not a single pic of any Bavarian medal here in this forum. Wait til next year and buy "the Bible" then you'll find out all answers to your quests for sure. Btw the author will be in Reichertshofen. Give him fun for some hours and show him your 1st class MVK, even better, let him make a scan of the medal and it will appear in the book (chapter "poor fakes").

Therewith this argument is ended now for my part.

Best greetings from clawfinger!!!

saschaw: Ist halt schwer bei soviel Ignaranz."

If the intention is to persuade people to buy the (Your) book then I would suggest that there are better ways to advertise it

regards

Alex K

[Yankee]

I thought ling before posting this, however, here goes, I have also watched this thread with great interest. I was after all, the first to congratulate Kevin on a nice acquisition. As it transpires from later postings, other members cast doubt on the authenticity of the piece in question, without, as Kevin originally pointed out, any corroborative evidence, just a general blanket statement. My knowledge of this award is limited and the two examples I have, have been verified as authentic. I together with many other members are more than happy to learn from others about items in their collection, with informative comments and information which can be proven, after all most of us have at some stage bought a ?lemon?. That being said, tempers have been raised in a number of postings which as Rick Research, Chris Boonzaier and Stogieman have pointed out, detract from the general ethos of this particular forum, and that is, that it is conducted in a friendly and gentlemanly way, with exchange of information which in the end benefits all. The following comments I illustrate by example as being unhelpful

"I am able to understand your English as well as your good old aunt was able to understand it!

And I would bet that you will get not a single pic of any Bavarian medal here in this forum. Wait til next year and buy "the Bible" then you'll find out all answers to your quests for sure. Btw the author will be in Reichertshofen. Give him fun for some hours and show him your 1st class MVK, even better, let him make a scan of the medal and it will appear in the book (chapter "poor fakes").

Therewith this argument is ended now for my part.

Best greetings from clawfinger!!!

saschaw: Ist halt schwer bei soviel Ignaranz."

If the intention is to persuade people to buy the (Your) book then I would suggest that there are better ways to advertise it

regards

Alex K

Hi Alex

Also had the bad luck to get a lemon and it was a sickening feeling at that. However at the same token I was grateful when other collectors informed me that it was not what it should be. I guess you can't sugar coat words when telling someone they have a fake.

[militaria0815]

My knowledge of this award is limited and the two examples I have, have been verified as authentic.

Alex K

It would be extremely helpful, if you could share the pictures of your verified original items, then we all can see the differences between the posted lemons and certified originals. Btw I mean the MVK 1st class w crown and X.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I would like to inform you that during some of the more excited exchanges on this thread, a fellow member took the time and courtesy to point out, by a personal message, that my piece which is shown in posts 52 and 65 is very likely a gilded piece by Hemmerle which could not be considered to be a genuine example. Closer inspection at my end confirms his observations.

I hope that my posts did not mislead anyone and would like to thank all who have contributed so much helpful information with regard to this complex subject. No doubt ?The Bible? , when it comes out, will lead many of us out of this wilderness.

In closing, I would like to offer another piece for your evaluation.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

It lives in here -

[Wild Card]

Obverse.

[Wild Card]

Reverse.

[Wild Card]

Hallmark "GH 900"

[Alex K]

It would be extremely helpful, if you could share the pictures of your verified original items, then we all can see the differences between the posted lemons and certified originals. Btw I mean the MVK 1st class w crown and X.

Hi militaria0815, It seems that I inadverently misled when I said that I had two verified examples, I do, but are the MVO4 X,?posted?earler,?and?technically?outside?this?thread and a MVK3 X (without enamel),?I?don't?own?a MVK1?with?or?without?crown?and?X,?and from what's been said previously am unlikely to , sorry?for?the?confusion

Alex K