Kriegsmarine Japanese style Auxiliary Cruiser

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

At last!

Silver

[JapanX]

And again typical japanese mark (and this one on the badge that came from 70s-80s!!!)

[JapanX]

Same mark story with awarding silver cups!

No sterling around

Imperial Gift cup from 1915 (Taisho Enthronement Commemoration)

Mark "pure silver" + manufacturer personal mark

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Department of Police awading cup

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Famous set for veterans from the Prime Minister's Office.

These were issued in 60s.

[JapanX]

Beauty ...

[JapanX]

Made by the Japan Mint + SILVER

[JapanX]

Personally I can’t find any plausible explanation why Japanese (!!!) manufacturer used american (ok, not really exclusively “american”, but nevertheless) mark sterling (we are talking about 1943!!!) on the badges that were made for German Navy personnel …

Also why this mark has slightly different style on different badges?

And what`s up with this migration (under, over, upside down ...)

Same story with variations ...

I can`t understand why we have silver and tombac versions.

Any ideas guys?

Regards,

Nick

[JapanX]

P.S. By the way, as for today we have two known awarding dates for this badge

First will be January 6, 1946 (see post #23 by Martin)

He comes another documented badge (looks like we have the tompac variation here).

Same date same cruiser

[JapanX]

Another date is April 1, 1943 (this badge we saw in posts #37-38 variation in silver without meridians (mark STRELING under the hook))

Edited March 2, 2013 by JapanX

[Gensui]

Absolutely great overview Nick! Highly appreciate!

It was always a big questionmark, why so many different variations exist.

To the question of the fitting. I personally think, that Japanese maker tried to be "as realistic as possible" to the origin/official (German) one and no japanese fittings (Needles( Hooks) were allowed.

BR, Chris

[Martin W]

To the question of the fitting. I personally think, that Japanese maker tried to be "as realistic as possible" to the origin/official (German) one and no japanese fittings (Needles( Hooks) were allowed.

BR, Chris

I have to agree here Chris.

There were crewmen who served on the Thor's 2nd Cruise under Gumprich that also served on the Thor's 1st cruise under Kahler.

These men had already received the HK award for this service and were probably awarded badges made by Juncker or Schwerin ?

I can only presume that the dies for these sterling and tombak HK badges were designed from an existing German award and this can be seen in the reverse hardware with the block hinge and wide mainpin.

Having said that,these badges do not resemble any of the known German awards in "overall design".

As we know these badges were made from sterling or tombak.The HK award documents from the Thor and MIchel are dated in early 1943.

Correct me if i am wrong,but i beleive at this time German manufacturers were producing awards primarily in zinc.

The question remains as to who made them??

After viewing Nick's fine overview of Japanese awards that show us the variations in reverse set up's and marks,i think that these HK awards were not made by a major producer of military awards but by a small workshop in Yokohama?

In regards to the lines of latitude and longitude see my thread here that i posted at GCA.

http://www.germancombatawards.com/thread.php?threadid=39010

I also think that each one of these badges were individually hand finished.This also explains the difference in the outlines and the application of the sterling stamp on the silver examples.

The bottom line for me is that i think these badges were NOT made in Germany and were made in Japan for the crewmen of the Thor after they were stranded there when the ship was destroyed by fire in Yokohama Harbour.They were also issued to crewmen of the Michel that also operated out of Japan.

The images posted by Monsun in post # 3 is compelling evidence that these "non-German" made badges were produced and "worn" by crewmen who served on ships operating out of Japan.

There is still a lot to learn about these awards?

Regards,Martin.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Martin W

[JapanX]

They were also issued to crewmen of the Michel that also operated out of Japan.

Hi Martin,

as far as I know these badges were issued to crewmen of the "Thor", "Michel", "Doggerbank" (later "Charlotte Schliemann") and "Uckermark".

Regards,

Nick

P.S. Will it be possible for you to repost your info regarding meridians (obviously they were added to the badges later by pretty steady hand - most likely conventionally) in this thread (you'll need to be registered with GCA to see original thread).

[JapanX]

I personally think, that Japanese maker tried to be "as realistic as possible" to the origin/official (German) one and no japanese fittings (Needles( Hooks) were allowed.

I have to agree here Chris.

There were crewmen who served on the Thor's 2nd Cruise under Gumprich that also served on the Thor's 1st cruise under Kahler.

These men had already received the HK award for this service and were probably awarded badges made by Juncker or Schwerin ?

I can only presume that the dies for these sterling and tombak HK badges were designed from an existing German award and this can be seen in the reverse hardware with the block hinge and wide mainpin.

Having said that,these badges do not resemble any of the known German awards in "overall design".

Yes guys, this is one and only (from my point of view) explanation for this untypical fitting!

[Martin W]

Hi Martin,

as far as I know these badges were issued to crewmen of the "Thor", "Michel", "Doggerbank" (later "Charlotte Schliemann") and "Uckermark".

Regards,

Nick

Hi Nick,

i do agree here.In fact,i think that there was a constant exchange of crewmen from the various ships that operated in and out of Japan.prior to and espacially after the Uckermark and the Thor were desroyed by fire in Yokohama on November 30 1942.

Many of these "stranded" crewmen from the Thor and Uckermark went to serve on other ships.

As we know,the Thor commander,Gunther Gumprich took over command of the Michel when her Commander Helmuth von Ruchkteschell fell ill and was hospitalised in Tokyo.

Many of the former Thor crewmen joined Gumprich on the ill-fated second cruise of the Michel.

Other crewmen from the Thor joined the crews of the Blockeade Breakers operating out of Japan,in hope to return to Germany.These ships include the Blockade Breakers,Irene,Pietro Orsolo and the Regensberg.

In fact,about 43 members of the Uckermark joined the the crew of the Regensburg.

Some former Thor crewmen were killed on the Doggerbank when she was sunk off the Azores in March 1943 by one of her own U-Boats,(U-43).

There was only one survivor.

But i think that to earn the HK award you had to have service on one of the Raiders?

I find it hard to beleive that these awards were given to crewmen who served on Blockade Breakers only,but who knows ?

Regards,Martin.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Martin W

[JapanX]

Hi Martin,

But i think that to earn the HK award you had to have service on one of the Raiders?

definitely

By the way, what do you think about the approximate number of issued "japanese" HK?

According to the vet memories every crewmen got the badge.

If so, I wonder how many of theses badges were made in our mysterious Yokohama workshop ...

Cheers,

Nick

Edited March 5, 2013 by JapanX

[Martin W]

Hi Martin,

By the way, what do you think about the approximate number of issued "japanese" HK?

According to the vet memories every crewmen got the badge.

If so, I wonder how many of theses badges were made in our mysterious Yokohama workshop ...

Cheers,

Nick

Hi Nick,

as you say the numbers are approximate.

I have the complete crewlists from both the Thor 1 & 2.

On the second cruise of the Thor i have about 369 names.

My recoerds indicate that the ships compliment of the Michel was about 400.

So,we have about,lets say about 770 crewmen,give or take.

I wonder if the men who served on the 1st cruise of the Thor and had already received the HK badge,received this Japanese badge on the 2nd cruise?

I am inclinded to think no.

I do not have any exact numbers here in regards to these crewmen who served on both cruises without further study on my behalf.

Regards,Martin.

[John R]

I also think that the badges being discussed were made in Japan for the German crewmen. They could have been made either by a jeweler or in a shipyard. The Japanese shipyards could make anything in my opinion--heck, if they could make a gigantic battleship, they could make a badge.

I have lived in Korea and Japan and I warned my American friends never to ask for something, even as a joke. Your hosts will get it for you since you put them on the spot. I believe that if the Captain of a German ship, or the naval attache, asked if the badge could be copied, the Japanese would have moved mountains to fulfill the request, even if they did not particularly want to.

Since there would have been language difficulties, I do not think, unless a shipyard official spoke German or a common non-Japanese language, the German crew could wander down to a shop and get it done trading some German items for the finished badges. With the help of Japanese officials, no problem getting it done.

I have worked in several shipyards in my life--they are amazing places and it is incredible what a machinist can do in them. So I think the badge could have been made by a jeweler or in a shipyard shop without much effort--just the directive to get it done from the Japanese hosts.

Since the design looks Asian to me, I do not think it was made in one of the German ships' machine shop, even though those sailors were also quite ingenious to keep their vessels moving so far away from Germany. At the same time, the AC badge looks a bit crude (do not get me wrong, I really like the badge and wish I had one) also pointing me to the shipyard machinists over a skilled jeweler, but who knows? I am just advancing another idea.

Why the "sterling" stamp exists, I do not know nor do I think it is that important since the badge itself has provenance with the mark. It exists for some reason that made perfect sense then and little sense now.

I think the medal is another story created in Singapore by the Japanese Navy as some sort of commemorative gift--in no way was it an official Japanese award although I am somewhat surprised they did not give one of their campaign medals to these German crews. Asians like to give and receive gifts as part of a cultural sense of politeness. That is what I think the Singapore medal is and not much different than if the Germans had received a ceramic sake cup I think.

John

[JapanX]

On the second cruise of the Thor i have about 369 names.

My recoerds indicate that the ships compliment of the Michel was about 400.

Thank you for these numbers Martin

I wonder if the men who served on the 1st cruise of the Thor and had already received the HK badge,received this Japanese badge on the 2nd cruise?

I am inclinded to think no.

Absolutely agree.

I think this is impossible.

Best,

Nick

[Martin W]

I also think that the badges being discussed were made in Japan for the German crewmen. They could have been made either by a jeweler or in a shipyard. The Japanese shipyards could make anything in my opinion--heck, if they could make a gigantic battleship, they could make a badge.

I have lived in Korea and Japan and I warned my American friends never to ask for something, even as a joke. Your hosts will get it for you since you put them on the spot. I believe that if the Captain of a German ship, or the naval attache, asked if the badge could be copied, the Japanese would have moved mountains to fulfill the request, even if they did not particularly want to.

I have worked in several shipyards in my life--they are amazing places and it is incredible what a machinist can do in them. So I think the badge could have been made by a jeweler or in a shipyard shop without much effort--just the directive to get it done from the Japanese hosts.

Since the design looks Asian to me, I do not think it was made in one of the German ships' machine shop, even though those sailors were also quite ingenious to keep their vessels moving so far away from Germany. At the same time, the AC badge looks a bit crude (do not get me wrong, I really like the badge and wish I had one) also pointing me to the shipyard machinists over a skilled jeweler, but who knows? I am just advancing another idea.

Some interesting points John and all quite credible.

I just wish i could have had the opportunity to talk to former crewmen of the THOR's 2nd cruise in regards to these awards.

Why the "sterling" stamp exists, I do not know nor do I think it is that important since the badge itself has provenance with the mark. It exists for some reason that made perfect sense then and little sense now.

Amen to that.

Regards, Martin.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Martin W

[Gensui]

I wonder if the men who served on the 1st cruise of the Thor and had already received the HK badge,received this Japanese badge on the 2nd cruise?

I am inclinded to think no.

According to the regulation, each aux-member fulfills the requirements of getting the auxiliary war badge after one / the first voyage. As far as I know, each aux-member received their badge during the first voyage.

I can imagine, that – for that reasons, John showed – some crew members started to “deal” with their badges (uniforms, equipment, etc.). I wouldn’t wonder if there is the possibility of “exchanging” the ordinary, “salty” badge against a more valuable and “shiny” version (made of sterling?).

But as time is running, there aren’t many fellows to ask unfortunately…

BR,

Chris

[JapanX]

Why the "sterling" stamp exists, I do not know nor do I think it is that important since the badge itself has provenance with the mark. It exists for some reason that made perfect sense then and little sense now.

Amen to that.

Gotcha guys