Question on the awarding of the Bavarian MVK's

[Ed Maroli]

Were the classes of the MVK's awarded by rank as in the officer MVO's?

Thanks, Ed

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes. That is how you get some "with Crown" as a second award of the same class and others with Crown as an initial 1st award.

[ccj]

That's a good Question. I'd like to see the entire range of awards for this decoration. I've often wondered why there appear to be so many different crosses for enlisted people. Then theres the one with the enameled center.

Also, if you are awarded the decoration 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 times do you where all on the medal bar? What aoubt he ribbon bar? I've seen as many as three on a ribbon bar and wonder if it's the same as three Prussian black/white ribbons.

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah, but until 1913 there were also only TWO classes of cross for the enlisted ranks, not SIX.

So by the standards of virtually every other Imperial German state, Bavaria was unusually generous in providing a range of awards for NCOs from 1913 on.

Given how few of the peacetime Crosses were bestowed 1913-14, and the nature of promotions diuring the war, it would have been almost impossible to end up wearing more than two Crosses. I cannot recall ever seeing more than two in a real group, though there might have been lucky Offizieranw?rter/F?hnriche who made it up to Leutnant (dR) who could have had 3 (with a BMV4X) in their rapid rise through those ranks.

[Dave Danner]

As an initial award, the Military Merit Order and Military Merit Cross generally break down as follows:

• MVK 3rd Class with Swords: Gefreiter, Soldat (Infanterist, Kanonier, Chevauleger, etc.)
• MVK 3rd Class with Crown and Swords: Sergeant, Unteroffizier
• MVK 2nd Class with Swords: Feldwebel, Vizefeldwebel
• MVK 2nd Class with Crown and Swords: Offizierstellvertreter
• MVK 1st Class with Swords: Feldwebelleutnant

• MVO 4th Class with Swords: Hauptmann/Rittmeister, Oberleutnant, Leutnant
• MVO 4th Class with Crown and Swords: Major
• MVO 3rd Class with Swords: Oberstleutnant
• MVO 3rd Class with Crown and Swords: Oberst
• MVO Officer's Cross: Oberst
• MVO 2nd Class with Swords: Generalmajor
• MVO 2nd Class with Star and Swords: Generalleutnant
• MVO 1st Class with Swords: General

For higher grades of the order, the picture is somewhat muddied. Officers generally had a prewar grade of the order without swords, which sometimes affected which grade of the order with swords they received.

As one got promoted during the war and had additional acts of bravery or merit, one could work up the grades of the award. Alfons Ritter von Bram, Friedrich Ritter von Haack, Otto Ritter von H?bner, Friedrich Ritter von Kunzmann, Hermann Ritter von Lenz, and Adolf Ritter von Ruith were each awarded four Military Merit Orders with Swords during the war.

[Ulsterman]

Dave-can you supply us with a source/stautes/regs as to the above chart?.

Isn't a FeldwebelLt. basically the same position/rank (e.g. company commander) as OfficerStellvertr., except in a reserve/Landwehr unit?

Edited November 12, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

While both were usually platoon leaders, an Offizierstellvertreter was considered a variety of "super Vizefeldwebel" while a Feldwebelleutnant (and the equivalents) was a distinct Warrant Officer level. It comes down to the Magic Shoulder Boards.

Then there was the insultingly bizarre practice of handing Paymasters and the like MVK1Xs instead of MVO4Xs... so there are always odd exceptions and gray areas.

[Dave Danner]

Dave-can you supply us with a source/stautes/regs as to the above chart?.

Isn't a FeldwebelLt. basically the same position/rank (e.g. company commander) as OfficerStellvertr., except in a reserve/Landwehr unit?

I created the list based on a review of awards published in the Bavarian Milit?r-Verordnungsblatt for enlisted soldiers and in Roth's Bayerische milit?rische Orden 1914-1918 for officers.

[Ulsterman]

I created the list based on a review of awards published in the Bavarian Milit?r-Verordnungsblatt for enlisted soldiers and in Roth's Bayerische milit?rische Orden 1914-1918 for officers.

Superb!

Have you come to any statistical conclusions? Is the above iron clad (with a few equitable/inequitable exceptions)?

If you have, may I urge you to publish this information as soon as possible? I and many others would love to know more.

[Dave Danner]

Superb!

Have you come to any statistical conclusions? Is the above iron clad (with a few equitable/inequitable exceptions)?

If you have, may I urge you to publish this information as soon as possible? I and many others would love to know more.

There are a number of omissions. I only covered regular soldiers, not specialized personnel like Zahlmeisters, etc.

I am working on an article on Iron Cross "equivalents". In various threads here and on WAF, we've discussed this question of what the Iron Cross "equivalents" of the different states are. For states like Bavaria and Saxony, where rank generally determined what award one got, I have been going through rolls and putting together lists like that above.

[Daniel Krause]

Hi friends,

sources, sources, sources.....nearly EVERY thing was regulated in the old times:

Morgenroth, W.: Bayerisches Jahrbuch 1916, Ein Hand- und Nachschlagebuch f?r B?ro, Kontor und Haus nebst Kalender, 29.Jahrgang, M?nchen o.J.

Milit?rverdienstorden:

3.Klasse mit Krone: Obersten (Regimentskommandeure usw.)

3.Klasse: Oberstleutnante (Bataillonskommandeure usw.)

4.Klasse mit Krone: Majore

4.Klasse: Leutnante, Oberleutnante, Hauptleute

MVK 1.Klasse mit Krone: mittlere Beamte des Kriegsministeriums

MVK 1.Klasse: Feldwebelleutnante und sonstige mittlere Beamte

MVK 2.Klasse mit Krone: Offiziersstellvertreter, Unterzahlmeister, Musikmeister usw.

MVK 2.Klasse: Vizefeldwebel, Feldwebel, F?hnriche

MVK 3.Klasse mit Krone: Unteroffiziere und Sergeanten

MVK 3.Klasse: Mannschaften

Best regards

Daniel

[Claudio]

Hi Daniel!

What about the Steckkreuz (Offizierskreuz)? You left that out...

Ciao,

Claudio

[militaria0815]

Hi Daniel!

What about the Steckkreuz (Offizierskreuz)? You left that out...

Ciao,

Claudio

Was generally awarded to cornels, lieutenant cornels and to some medical doctors in the rank of a general.

[Daniel Krause]

o.k. The higher classes I left out, because the original question was for a MVK, not the higher MVO?s.

Officers pinback was for Full Colonels in special assignments, like Chief of a General Staff of an Army or Army Corps.

Commander for Major Generals

Commander with Star to LtGen

1st Class to commanding (full) Generals

Grand Cross for Colonel Generals and Field Marshals

Best regards

Daniel

[militaria0815]

Officers pinback was for Full Colonels in special assignments, like Chief of a General Staff of an Army or Army Corps.

Daniel

What about the Lieutenant Colonels who got the Steckkreuz and the Generals? Why were these exceptions made?

[Dave Danner]

What about the Lieutenant Colonels who got the Steckkreuz and the Generals? Why were these exceptions made?

Only one general received the Officer's Cross with Swords: Genmaj. Karl Freiherr von Nagel zu Aichberg - BMV.OX (11.9.14), BMV2X (14.8.15), Stern dazu (26.10.16). But his Officer's Cross was published just one day after he was promoted to Generamajor, so it would have been awarded when he was still an Oberst.

As for the Oberstleutnante with the Officer's Cross, with one exception, all were either Austro-Hungarian officers (for whom the Officer's Cross seems customary) or received the Officer's Cross as a second, third or fourth award:

Franz Ritter von Epp - BMV3XmKr (11.9.14), BMV.OX (5.2.16)

Friedrich Ritter von Haack - BMV4XmKr (14.2.15), BMV3X (21.12.15), BMV3XmKr (22.2.17), BMV.OX (27.8.17)

Hans Ritter von Hemmer - BMV3XmKr (2.5.15), BMV.OX (26.10.16)

Eduard H?rnle - BMV3XmKr (11.10.15), BMV.OX (8.1.17)

Friedrich Freiherr Kre? von Kressenstein - BMV3XmKr (28.5.15), BMV.OX (5.6.16)

Gustav Freiherr Kre? von Kressenstein - BMV4XmKr (11.9.14), BMV3X (16.8.15), BMV3XmKr (8.1.17) BMV.OX (26.11.18)

Hermann Ritter von Lenz - BMV4XmKr (11.9.14), BMV3X (23.12.16), BMV3XmKr (16.1.18), BMV.OX (13.5.18)

Adolf Ritter von Ruith - BMV4XmKr (11.9.14), BMV3X (10.8.16), BMV3XmKr (23.7.17), BMV.OX (8.3.19)

Franz St?ngl - BMV3XmKr (11.9.14), BMV.OX (24.3.16)

Joseph von Tannstein genannt Fleischmann - BMV4XmKr (11.9.14), BMV3XmKr (24.9.16), BMV.OX (24.4.17)

The exception is OTL Otto von Lossow, who received his BMV.OX on 11.9.14 (and a BMV2X on 2.8.19). In his case (1) he was a prior holder of a 4th Class with Swords from China, (2) he was chief of the general staff of a corps, the I. Bavarian Reserve Corps, and (3) he was promoted to Oberst two months later.

For the higher grades, the exceptions for generals are (1) prior recipients of a lower grade with swords, (2) non-Bavarians who appear to commonly receive a "bump" to the next grade, and (3) generals zur Disposition, who also commonly get a "bump" to the next higher grade.

For example, the Generalmajore who received the 2nd Class with Star and Swords were all non-Bavarians or Genmaj.z.D.

For the 1st Class with Swords, with one exception, the Generalleutnante who received it were non-Bavarians, Genlt. z.D., or prior recipients of the 2nd Class with Star and Swords. The exception was Gustav Ritter von Schoch, who appears to have been retired around the same time as his award.

For the Grand Cross, the only exceptions to the rules above were Prinz Alfons von Bayern and Prinz Ludwig Ferdinand von Bayern. The others were non-Bavarians, prior recipients of the BMV1X, or z.D.