Luftwaffe LW Close Combat Clasp

[Wilco]

For our project www.ww2awards.com I am searching for nice usable photos of the various classes of the Luftwaffe Close Combat Clasp. Anyone can help? Photo's or scans need to be large enough to work on the background (we finally need a black background).

Off course we shall credit the owner on our website.

[Paul R]

I thought that LW Ground forces used the Heer Close Combat Clasp.

[mmiller]

I thought that LW Ground forces used the Heer Close Combat Clasp.

Paul,

I agree with you. I think most others would too. No evidence exists that the Luft CCC Badge was ever presented. To aver otherwise is a bit of a stretch.

Regards,

Mark

Edited December 9, 2007 by mmiller

[Wilco]

Nahkampfspange der Luftwaffe was very different.

Instituted on 3rd November 1944 in three grades, Bronze, Silver and Gold: <a href="http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Orden/lw-nks.html" target="_blank">http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Orden/lw-nks.html</a>

Before that date, indeed the Wehrmacht Nahkampfspange was used. On 13th January 1945 it was decided that the Luftwaffe groundforces that already obtained a Wehrmacht Nahkampfspange could exchange the Wehrmacht exemple for a Luftwaffe version. For the purposes I need the photo it is not interesting wether the decoration was actually awarded or not, It was insituted, so it could have been awarded.

Just need the photos.

Edited December 9, 2007 by Wilco

[mmiller]

Sorry, double post.

Edited December 9, 2007 by mmiller

[Paul R]

I have never seen an unquestioned example. I could be wrong but I think that these are like the Luftwaffe Panzer Assault Badge. Maybe awarded on paper only?

[Wilco]

Could be.

I agree no awarding has untill now been recorded. Also it is to my knowledge unknow wether they were produced (see the similarity with the Marinespange). But also I think not much research has been done to this one either.

[mmiller]

I have never seen an unquestioned example. I could be wrong but I think that these are like the Luftwaffe Panzer Assault Badge. Maybe awarded on paper only?

Paul,

It was definately awarded on paper, even to the level of the Gold Presentation NKSiG. Manfred Dorr's reference shows evidence of Luft personnel being awarded the Luft CCC (paper ONLY). Through the end of the war, they were presented the Heer NKS. No evidence suggests that anything else was ever made.

The difference lies between awarded and presented.

Regards,

Mark

[Peter J]

There was an article in IMM (Oct. 2003) by Manfred D?rr showing two Pr?fst?ck in silver, as well as one photo of a LW soldier with the CCC LW. Personally I find it difficult to positively indentify the badge as such, considering the poor image, but in combination with an Erdkampfabz. it makes sense. Mind you, I'm just the messanger

cheers

Peter

[J Temple-West]

So that we?re all on the same page, here is an example of the common fake clasp available out there.

As Mark says, being instituted, entries in soldbuch/wehrpass made and urkunde issued does not necessarily mean that the award was ever presented. This being the same for the ?Sea Battle Badge-Seekampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe? and ?Tank Battle Badge-Panzerkampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe.?

If any of these late war badges were presented they would be in very low numbers and extremely hard to find.

To date, there is no evidence that any of these badges were ever presented? and if one were to find an example that looked good, what would you compare it to.

[Peter J]

For the record, this one is not identical to the clasp in the article, which has triangular holes and two rivets on the reverse.

cheers

Peter

So that we?re all on the same page, here is an example of the common fake clasp available out there.

As Mark says, being instituted, entries in soldbuch/wehrpass made and urkunde issued does not necessarily mean that the award was ever presented. This being the same for the ?Sea Battle Badge-Seekampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe? and ?Tank Battle Badge-Panzerkampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe.?

If any of these late war badges were presented they would be in very low numbers and extremely hard to find.

To date, there is no evidence that any of these badges were ever presented? and if one were to find an example that looked good, what would you compare it to.

[PKeating]

I keep hearing about "awards on paper" in relation to the Luftwaffe NKS, as well as the LW Tank Badge and the numbered Ground Assault Badges but I have yet to see credible evidence. There is a group currently for sale on Bill Shea's website - http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Documents/d196.htm - for $5,500.00 that includes what purport to be provisional award certificates for the PKA and the NKS. This group was discussed on several websites and while some people said that the documents were genuine, the collector who had purchased the group got rid of it quite fast once it became pretty clear that the documents were highly questionable. The price says it all. Put it this way: I have a group to a member of FAR1 that is better than a similar group sold recently for ?3,000.00. That's $4,400.00, more or less. It's a nice group to a Kretaspringer and so on but if it is worth almost four and a half grand in USD, then a genuine LW NKA and PKA group would easily be worth twice as much to a serious collector. I have spent time with quite a few men who would have qualified for the LW NKS and they were unaware of any awards of this badge before 9.5.1945. They knew it was in the pipeline, along with the other badges proposed by G?ring, but it is highly doubtful that any of the so-called "awards on paper" are genuine. No living veteran has ever stepped up to confirm such awards. End of story.

PK

[Paul R]

I keep hearing about "awards on paper" in relation to the Luftwaffe NKS, as well as the LW Tank Badge and the numbered Ground Assault Badges but I have yet to see credible evidence. There is a group currently for sale on Bill Shea's website - http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Documents/d196.htm - for $5,500.00 that includes what purport to be provisional award certificates for the PKA and the NKS. This group was discussed on several websites and while some people said that the documents were genuine, the collector who had purchased the group got rid of it quite fast once it became pretty clear that the documents were highly questionable. The price says it all. Put it this way: I have a group to a member of FAR1 that is better than a similar group sold recently for ?3,000.00. That's $4,400.00, more or less. It's a nice group to a Kretaspringer and so on but if it is worth almost four and a half grand in USD, then a genuine LW NKA and PKA group would easily be worth twice as much to a serious collector. I have spent time with quite a few men who would have qualified for the LW NKS and they were unaware of any awards of this badge before 9.5.1945. They knew it was in the pipeline, along with the other badges proposed by G?ring, but it is highly doubtful that any of the so-called "awards on paper" are genuine. No living veteran has ever stepped up to confirm such awards. End of story.

PK

Thanks Prosper!

[mmiller]

I'm working in the attic today and don't have too much time for discussion here, but turn to pages 78 - 84 of Manfred Dorr's first edition (1996) Die Trager der Nahkampfspange in Gold. He addresses the Luftwaffe NKS and Luft Panzer Assault badges, showing period rules concerning the award, and period images of the proposed badge. (As an aside, I don't believe that they were ever struck. IMHO.)

More importantly, he shows Award Docs (to Wilhelm Endres of 7./Fallschirm-Jager Regiment 6) for Endres' DK, his Gold Wound Badge, and his III Stuffe der Nahkampfspange, along with a telegram dated 1. Marz 1945, discussing the Gold NKS. All references are to the Heer version of the award.

Regards,

Mark

[Peter J]

Quote from the article:

"Von einiger zeit wurde mir von einem Sammler ein Bild, bsw. ein Abzug von enem Originalbild zur Verf?gung gestellt, welches einen Soldaten der Division "Hermann G?ring" zeigt!! Dieser tr?gt unter anderem auch eine Nahkasmpfspange der Luftwaffe. Dies ist vohl erstmals eine Fotografie, welche dokumentiert, dass die Nahkampfspange der Luftwaffe auch noch ausgeh?ndigt und getragen wurde."

As we all know, a lot of things can happen in 7 years and apparently Herr D?rr has revised his previous view. I don't know if these findings are correct or not, but I thought it would be interesting for this forum to know.

cheers

Peter

[mmiller]

Quote from the article:

"Von einiger zeit wurde mir von einem Sammler ein Bild, bsw. ein Abzug von enem Originalbild zur Verf?gung gestellt, welches einen Soldaten der Division "Hermann G?ring" zeigt!! Dieser tr?gt unter anderem auch eine Nahkasmpfspange der Luftwaffe. Dies ist vohl erstmals eine Fotografie, welche dokumentiert, dass die Nahkampfspange der Luftwaffe auch noch ausgeh?ndigt und getragen wurde."

As we all know, a lot of things can happen in 7 years and apparently Herr D?rr has revised his previous view. I don't know if these findings are correct or not, but I thought it would be interesting for this forum to know.

cheers

Peter

Hi Peter,

I am aware that Herr Dorr has a revised Edition. My German is poor ... can you summarize the text you quoted above, please? Have you found any specific mention as to (regarding the Luft CCC and Panzer badges) what his new opinion is, or what he has corrected from the first book? Not trying to be challenging here, but am honestly curious as to any new info that he has found, which would change his viewpoint, one way or the other!

I guess people are still buying these badges, when they rear their ugly heads!

Regards,

Mark

[Tom D.]

Hi guys,

Dorr states that one of the Luftwaffe recipients was to receive the new award from Goering himself on January 2nd, 1945, but at the last minute it was realized that this new award was not available. Dorr states that at that time, it was still in the prototype stage, which leaves open the possiblity that there were a few struck.

By the end of the war, the soldier had never received the LW version, always wearing the army version. Also, there are many period photographs of LW guys wearing the typical Army version, I have yet to see one with the LW version.

Tom

[Gene]

When I lived in Germany I befriended two HG vets and they say they never saw these awards. Both had earned the Luftwaffe close combat clasp but were awarded the Heer/SS version.

[PKeating]

If it were in the prototype stage, the prototypes would probably have been bare badges with no pins or hooks. In other words, studio mock-ups like the prototypical Army Balloon Observer Badge mentioned by Dr Klietmann.

PK

[Gordon Williamson]

I have the magazine that is referred to. The two very grainy photos of an HG soldier which are referred to show clearly enough the Erdkampfabz, EK1 and Wound Badge. It is also clear that a Luftwaffe pattern Spange is being worn however the photo is in no way clear enough to identify which. In fact I would be confident though, that it is NOT the Nahkampfspange. The whole unbroken top radius of the central wreath can be made out. If it were the NKS, the wings of the eagle would be clearly visible over the wreath at this part. Looks to me much more like a recce clasp indicating that he was one of the many former flight personnel who ended up in ground forces.

Here is the relevant section of the image with a Nahkampfspange overlaid. Where are the eagles wings ? Looks much more like the reflection of the top of the eagles head on a recce clasp to me.

The two "prototype" examples illustrated come with a certificate of authenticity from Nimmergut, - 'nuff said.

[Wilco]

"Von einiger zeit wurde mir von einem Sammler ein Bild, bsw. ein Abzug von enem Originalbild zur Verf?gung gestellt, welches einen Soldaten der Division "Hermann G?ring" zeigt!! Dieser tr?gt unter anderem auch eine Nahkasmpfspange der Luftwaffe. Dies ist vohl erstmals eine Fotografie, welche dokumentiert, dass die Nahkampfspange der Luftwaffe auch noch ausgeh?ndigt und getragen wurde."

It is sometimes important to correctly translate quotes in order not to miss the finesses of which is stated. German almost is my second language. This qoute sais:

"Some time ago a collector gave me me a photo, which was a copy of an original, which shows a soldier of the Division "Hermann Goring". This soldier wears, amongst others, also a Nahkampfspange der Luftwaffe (Luftwaffe Close Combat Clasp). This is the first time a photo is shown that documents that the Nahkampfspange der Luftwaffe has been awarded and worn."

[Tom D.]

Hi guys,

Very interesting photo Gordon. Do you have the full size version of picture? Any dates or anything with the photo?

Thanks

Tom

[J Temple-West]

Looks much more like the reflection of the top of the eagles head on a recce clasp to me.

I agree, Gordon.

[PKeating]

Wishful thinking on the writer's part. Whatever the clasp is, it is not an LW NKS. The problem with such statements is that they permit dodgy dealers to gull less-experienced collectors into parting with hefty sums of money for what amount to fantasy pieces.

PK

[mmiller]

It is sometimes important to correctly translate quotes in order not to miss the finesses of which is stated. German almost is my second language.

Thank you Wilco. I'm still not sure what to make of the statement, but I appreciate the translation. I guess that without the photo, the statement is a statement.

Mark