Soviet Central Armed Forces Museum - Moscow

[JimZ]

When visiting the CAF Musuem in Moscow, I could not help but ask myself if a number of the medals were actually originals or replicas. Supposedly replicas were labelled. But I got the feeling (or rather I was darn well sure) that there were many more replicas (avoiding the use of stronger words) than advertised.

I was explaining some basic issues that I had with some medals to my wife when a young museum attendant came up to me to ask if I needed any help. I was surely not going to be the one to advertise my thoughts on these orders and medals that openly. Why rock the boat when you can never be fully certain without seeing the reverse...and its not like its going to change anything anyways.

However I did walk away with the feeling that it was possible.... more likely probably, that for display purposes, not everything in the spectacular groups is what it seemed to be!

Did anyone else walk away with the same feeling.... or could I have been overwhelmed by the sheer volume of orders and medals that my perception become clouded?

Jim

[Christophe]

Hi Jim,

I share your feeling. It is commonly agreed among us in this Forum, or others, that a number of awards are not real ones. Some piocs have been already posted with regards to this question. i'll try to post some of them later...

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christophe]

Hi again, Jim.

Please, have laso a look at this thread :

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=9297

Cheers.

Ch.

[Christophe]

A first example :

Ch.

Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

[Ed_Haynes]

I went there AFTER going to the Museum of the GPW and the Museum of Contemporary History (since we can't use the "R-Word" any more, can we ), so everything (most things) looked good after seeing their Kaprap Krap. Some things were quite ugly (for example about the only "enlisted group" they showed). (See below.) Overall, good; 100% no.

[Christophe]

A real and "false" ones...

Ch.

Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

[JimZ]

IMHO only one of the 4 or 5 glory trios that were exhibited might have been authentic. And I would have no doubts about it if it was not for the wear and tear.

Lots of fake red banners too and lennins too!

Jim

[Guest Rick Research]

Is that because, after all, Zhukov etc could have had many more uniforms than actual Orders?

On the other hand, the crude cast (?) replicas for Orders which should have been in easy, common supply is strange. There certainly should be enough Red Stars, Red Banners of Labour, etc etc lying around for display. Nobody's looking at serial numbers on the backs.

Unless there was a conscious decision not to mix original but UNRELATED items in. This way, it is immediately clear which are real and which aren't.

Maybe Marshal "X," whose 15 uniforms are in 4 different museums has one REAL Red Banner in EACH place, and the rest are thinned out with museum display copies?

Certainly I've never seen "fakes" as bad as these, so perhaps the difference is MEANT to be obvious?

[Elmar Lang]

hi,

it sounds strange that in museums there are crudely made cast copies on display, when the Soviet State Mint produced orders made for museum display: those pieces were marked and/or engraved "Образец" on the reverse.

Could it be possible that many original (or official copies) pieces have been sold in the '80s and now substituted with less-valuable copies?

Best wishes,

Enzo

[Ed_Haynes]

Could it be possible that many original (or official copies) pieces have been sold in the '80s and now substituted with less-valuable copies?

For some museums (Museum of GPW or Contemporary History), I'd guess that may be the case. I was told a TON of stuff came out of the Lenin Museum when it was shut down, => Museum of the Revolution => Museum of Contemporary History. The Armed Forces Museum seems better and things like the FSB Border Forces museum seemed all OK.

[JimZ]

Maybe Marshal "X," whose 15 uniforms are in 4 different museums has one REAL Red Banner in EACH place, and the rest are thinned out with museum display copies?

Plausable.... but nevertheless tantamount to butchery!

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

it sounds strange that in museums there are crudely made cast copies on display, when the Soviet State Mint produced orders made for museum display: those pieces were marked and/or engraved "Образец" on the reverse.

Could it be possible that many original (or official copies) pieces have been sold in the '80s and now substituted with less-valuable copies?

Dear Enzo,

I had been offered by my dealer in Vienna in 1995 a Образец-Suvorov-1cl for an apple and an egg (price for an rather old used Volkswagen Golf at that time). It was an extraordinary beautiful item, platin and 100 % ident to the numbered ones from the mint. I didn't bought the Suvorov, because I didn't had the money and the order was obviously stolen or "purchased" from a Russian museum.

I guess, that our "comrades" in the adminstration of the museums sold first their Образец-items and then the s/n. ones and replaced them with crude fakes. We have to remember, that the 1990s had been a hard time for Russia ... Now these items - which spent some years in the west - are going back to Russia into the bank vaults of some Russian collectors.

Best regards

Christian

[Elmar Lang]

"...Now these items - which spent some years in the west - are going back to Russia into the bank vaults of some Russian collectors. ..."

...until some Russian collectors die and leave their collections to the Central Army Museum...

...until the next Russian crysis.

Our sons shall see (and possibly, collect, taking those pieces to the West, etc. etc. etc.).

Best wishes,

Enzo

Edited January 13, 2008 by Elmar Lang

[JimZ]

"...Now these items - which spent some years in the west - are going back to Russia into the bank vaults of some Russian collectors. ..."

...until some Russian collectors die and leave their collections to the Central Army Museum...

...until the next Russian crysis.

Our sons shall see (and possibly, collect, taking those pieces to the West, etc. etc. etc.).

Best wishes,

Enzo

Maybe. But the prices will never be as accessible as they were in the original russian crisis. And notwithstanding any crisis, there is now a legal framework preventing export of such items.

Once they are gone they will indeed be gone for all but the very rich.

To return back to the original topic.......

I noticed that some of the orders were indeed said to be repros - and I am ok with that. What worried me more was that others that were very evidently repros/fakes were nested as part of groups but there were no indications that these were fakes. This is indeed worrying as to me it reeks of an outflow of originals and inflow of repros/fakes..... no.... lets just call them fakes!!

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

We need to make a distinmction between legitimate Образец display pieces and shameless fakes (and, yes, Jim, we need to use the right names here).

Did you visit other museums, Jim? I was struck -- very strongly -- when I was there in 2006 (?) that while a place like the museum of the GPW was filled with nasty fakes -- far worse than Kapral Krap -- the Central Armed Forces Museum was relatively pure. I wonder if things have gone "walkabout" in those intervening months? Wouldn't put it past today's Russian museums.

[Bryan]

I was told a TON of stuff came out of the Lenin Museum when it was shut down, => Museum of the Revolution => Museum of Contemporary History.

I would tend to believe you on that statement. Look at the picture below fromt ha museum.

I wish I had visited the FSB Border Forces museum. Did you need a special invitation to go there?

[Bryan]

Other fakes from the same museum.

[Ed_Haynes]

I wish I had visited the FSB Border Forces museum. Did you need a special invitation to go there?

It took some string-pulling to arrange the invitation, but it all happened through my travel agent (with a guide and NO PHOTOS). It turned out I was there on the 65th anniversary of the German invasion, and a special vodka-imbued lunch and cultural performance had been laid on for the surviving old guys (KGB border tooops in 1941!), and the colonel who had arranged it asked me to sit in and meet them. Damn!

[JimZ]

We need to make a distinmction between legitimate Образец display pieces and shameless fakes (and, yes, Jim, we need to use the right names here).

Did you visit other museums, Jim? I was struck -- very strongly -- when I was there in 2006 (?) that while a place like the museum of the GPW was filled with nasty fakes -- far worse than Kapral Krap -- the Central Armed Forces Museum was relatively pure. I wonder if things have gone "walkabout" in those intervening months? Wouldn't put it past today's Russian museums.

Hi Ed,

I did visit some other museums but non military and therefore I cannot comment further about ODMs and other museums. I'll have to leave that for later on this year! I did get half put off by seeing so many fakes around.... Guess I had higher expectations and I was in away expecting 100% original medals and groups. Mind you, its educational nonetheless.... but I remember telling my wife that I would not take home half the medals even if they were offerred to me free. On second thoughts I would.... hoping that they'd give me the wrong half!

But it makes me wonder why, they cannot issue proper museum replicas from the mints using the exact same processes. Nobody would be anywiser if they did not chose to say "museum replicas"!!

Jim

[JimZ]

...... and a special vodka-imbued lunch ......

When they run on that sort of fuel its hard to stop them. No wonder the Germans could not!

Jim

[new world]

About replacing real awards with fakes in museums.

I used to indirectly know this one guy, he was very talented craftsman and could make very good copies of top Soviet orders for sale to collectors. We are talking about serious stuff - high quality goldplated silver and hard enamels. You would not be able to tell the difference if you saw one on display.

Bottom line - he got into trouble with authorities when some of his products ended up in museums in place of original awards...

So, I would not be surprised if most of good-looking items on display are not real as well.

William