Mongolia New publication on Mongolian ODM

[fjcp]

I was just looking around on ebay.de and I came across this interesting looking book.. 460 colour pics with descriptions.

Nice looking, and the author Hein Sonnenberg should be familiar to some.

JC

item#130201043797

new book

[Ed_Haynes]

Excellent. Now I have to find some way to get a copy

[Riley1965]

I was just looking around on ebay.de and I came across this interesting looking book.. 460 colour pics with descriptions.

Nice looking, and the author Hein Sonnenberg should be familiar to some.

JC

item#130201043797

new book

That looks like a good book. If anyone finds the publisher etc. PLEASE post the info.

Doc

[fjcp]

Excellent. Now I have to find some way to get a copy

I have sent the author an email asking for a price on the books and shipping.

He is also aware of this thread and forum from our earlier dealings and so he might post here himself at some point

I'll let you know ASAP.

Cheers.

JC

[Ed_Haynes]

Any word on the book? Interest remains . . .

[usairforce]

Good book, who can help me buy it?

[fjcp]

Any word on the book? Interest remains . . .

Sorry Ed & the rest

I've been meaning to give an update.....

Long story short , nothing Yet... I'm still waiting to hear back from the guy....

Soon though.... A day or two max.

Cheers

JC

[Eric Gaumann]

I see it's on US eBay for $45. Multiple copies available so I'd presume it's the author or publisher selling them. Shipping from Germany

[Ed_Haynes]

No idea on a non-e$cam source? (If someone has an extra copy . . . ????)

[Bob]

Have just received my copy in the mail.

Format slightly bigger than Herfurth's handy pocket size catalogue. Photographs are larger and quite good. From first quick glance, nothing new in here in terms of "never seen before medals"... however, it appears to raise some interesting questions as some new types are specified, periods are giving on awarding and also number of awarded + price indication. Some of this last data is puzzling, baffling, surprising and simply raises a lot of questions. Some examples:

- is there really a Type 3 bronze gilded Hero of Labor award?

- were there really 150 awarded Order of Red Banner of Military Valor 4th awardings?

- were there really 1.000 type 1 polar stars awarded?

Since the author appears to be in contact with Dr B, it would be interesting to hear whether the nr of awardings / dates are really confirmed from official sources.

[Ed_Haynes]

Interesting. Would LOVE to see/have a copy (hint-hint?) before I see Bat this summer.

We'll be discussing (1) research and (2) the Second Edition.

Edited March 28, 2008 by Ed_Haynes

[Bob]

Last time I checked there were 3-4 for sale on eBay. If that's a problem, I'd be happy to buy and ship.

Alternatively, I'll just send the author an email if he'll sell direct - some questions to ask him anyway:)

Let me know

[Ed_Haynes]

Last time I checked there were 3-4 for sale on eBay. If that's a problem, I'd be happy to buy and ship.

Alternatively, I'll just send the author an email if he'll sell direct - some questions to ask him anyway:)

Let me know

PM sent, Bob.

[fjcp]

Last time I checked there were 3-4 for sale on eBay. If that's a problem, I'd be happy to buy and ship.

Alternatively, I'll just send the author an email if he'll sell direct - some questions to ask him anyway:)

Let me know

I asked the same thing but I all he did was list a bunch on ebay.....

Weird..

JC

[Bob]

Ed - empty your inbox

[Ed_Haynes]

Oops!

Partially done. More cleaning tomorrow.

[Riley1965]

I pre-ordered my copy and yet to have received it. And yet there are copies on e-scam... It just doesn't make sense.

Doc

[christerd]

I recieved my ex today !

Quite nice photos , but very little explanation to different types

But still some more Badges then the old Book (Herfurths that is)

Raises more questions that answered I think.....

Christer

[Ed_Haynes]

Get the Battushig book, and then wait for the 2nd edition . . . ?!?!?

Why waste your time on such lesser sources, if you don't really care?? Herfurth is a SAD joke.

UNLESS you demand sources auf Deutsch but why is this so for Mongolian awards ?

[Lapa]

UNLESS you demand sources auf Deutsch but why is this so for Mongolian awards ?

For the same reasons some others demand sources in English

[Ed_Haynes]

For the same reasons some others demand sources in English

Actually, I think it has to do with how commonly a language is spoken and read.

English is read and spoken as a mother tongue or learned language by some 1.5 billion people worldwide. Like it or not.

This compares to perhaps 1.05 billion for Mandarin Chinese, 577 million for Hindi, 500 million for French , 500 million for Spanish, maybe 350 million for Arabic (?), 255 million for Russian, 170 million for German, and 5.7 million for Mongolian. (All figures per Wikipedia, so . . . ?)

I once asked Bat why he didn't do a Mongolian version of his book, only one in English. His attitude was simple: It would be available to more people that way. He considered doing Russian and German editions (his other langauges), but felt the limited interest base wouldn't repay the effort. Rana Chhina and I considered doing a parallel Hindi edition of our now-finally-with-the-printer/binder book on post-independence Indian ODM, but realised that anyone with any interest in treading it would prefer to read it happier in English.

Like it ot not, English is pretty much "the" global language and the core language of discourse in our international "hobby". I wish we were all more multi-lingual, but this is the shape of reality, I think.

[Bob]

- were there really 1.000 type 1 polar stars awarded?

Interestingly enough - the author has confirmed he's held type 1's in his hand with serial numbers in 700 and 800 range.

Perhaps the rarity is then due to trading them in for newer types at some point.

[Bob]

For anybody interested: have some extra copies of the book mentioned at beginning of thread

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks. I still await mine. The postal "service" .

[Ed_Haynes]

With great thanks to Bob, I now have this book in hand.

To be honest, it is a mixed blessing. The first (and second and third) impression is a very "Herfurth" one. Pictures (some very good, some apparently borrowed, some pretty muddy), curiously renedered names in German and English, a one-line numismatic description with very little additional information, and a price (in Euros).

There is not much additional information here, though he does go beyone Herfurt's coverage of the "core" items to include some (but scarcely all) of the "badges" given by Battushig. (There is a threshold of classification here which may need some reconsideration?)

I fear the main function of this guide book is, like the much-cussed-and-discussed Medal Yearbook among British ODM collectors, to be a price guide. Does anyone know who the author, H. Sonnenberg, is? I sense he is a dealer. A dealer writing a price guide = incest or onanism? At times I got the feeling he must have been in league with Igor, maiking Igor's prices look really really low.

To take as an example the Sukhbaatar Order (on which have a very very good thread, both on the order and on price trends of that order -- <a href="http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4230" target="_blank">http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4230</a> ): Bob's latest survey shows recent sales of a screwback for $3225 (May 2008, about ?2047) and of a pinback at $3200 (April 2008, about ?1584 then). Sonnenborg shows prices for the screwback of ?2500 (=$3942) and ?2000 (=$3154) for the pinback.

It gets more troubling when we come to the more "common stuff". As of today (soom to change?), Igor lists the medal for the 50th Anniversary of State Security (Battushig A48) at $30 (=?19), while Sonnenberg's guide quotes ?100 (=$158). For one more example, the badge for the title of merit (A8). Igor has one (unnumbered) at $85 (= ?54); Sonnenberg shows this unnumberd at ?65 (=$102) but numberd at ?200 (=$315); makes you wonder how many are being "numbered" even as you read this? Or (and I'll stop now) a Order of the Combat Red Banner, 3rd award (A23.3): Igor $1995 (= ?1266), Sonnenberg ?2200 (= $3489). Whew!! And I think most of what we see of these are unawarded bank escapees!

While I shall be taking a copy of this to Bat, I shall ask him to treat this as a TOP SECRET item; the thought of this book, with these lunatic prices, falling into the hands of Ulanbaatar's suppliers of awards is a source of abject terror. Yet, I'd wager that they have it already and gleefully intone prices takes from its pages. Be afraid, be very afraid. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, . . . .

In terms of information -- always more important than PRICES -- there are some odd points and I'll touch on a few:

-- The author seems to be mostly unaware of what we have done here, in terms of typology and approximate numbers. He quotes numbers awarded and datyes (I think he, like Herfurt, just makes up this information). His information, for example, on the herder badges (I said I was going to ignore price figures, right?) is interesting, but one is left wondering on what he based this. Who would have believed that J03 was "ca. 1930", while the mirror reverse J02 was "1930-1950"? Personally, I don't. I think Sonnenberg is just making this stuff up. False facts get into the collective well like poison and we need to be careful here. But, maybe, information was not his primary intent.

-- He shows that bizarre horizontal order iof Civil Valor that Herfurt also shows (Herfurt M8.1, Sonnenberg OM35, NIB). What is it? Must ask Bat.

-- He does give good images of the two marshal stars, and for that we should be grateful (OM16 and OM17).

-- He replicates some of the confusion -- derived from Battushig -- about golden and silvered varieties, ignoring the ready evaporation of already-light gilding (for example: titles of merit, shock worker badges, state security badges, etc.). He even goes so far as to invent fantasy dates of award for these "types".

The pictures are pretty (sometimes -- though the Sukhbaatar images are especially ugly), the information should be taken with a grain of salt, the prices should be taken with several metric tons of salt. Yet this book is (as they used to say in the "X-Files") "out there" and many will consult it who may never know of Battushig's still #1 piece of work. I am not in any way sorry to have acquired this 132-page book, but in no way can I retire my now rather tattered working copy of Battushig. Maybe the best hope is that this little book will have its prices ignored (fat chance) and, more importantly, will fertilize the field for new, more serious, researched material on Mongolian phaleristics. I shall certainly be bashing Bat over the head with it in a few days.

Other comments?

Edited May 25, 2008 by Ed_Haynes