"Back from Stuttgart" or "Why did I buy this... ?"

[saschaw]

I've been to IWB Stuttgart today, on the last day of three. Much nice stuff was sold the last two days, stuff that I've never seen, with much crap still laying around, and of course still maaany nice things that just were to expensive or nobody wanted to buy by now. Prices are very high but this is common as the sellers have to pay vast, really insane sums of money for their stalls.

 

I bought one, just one piece - a heavily worn medal bar, my father wouldn't have taken it for the condition. But with that much newly sewn bars around, as well there in Stuttgart (I guess a third was such a crap), I was glad to get an old bar that really looks old.

 

The Frontfigther cross was addet in 1930s onto the bar for which the EK and ribbon were removed and later remounted. The 7th position is missing, was a Baden Zähringer Löwen order - from missing and the yellow thread I guess it was a knight's cross Ist class, presumably in gold.

 

The last position makes this bar somewhat special, it's a merit order from Chile - officer's cross, right? Any more thoughts on this bar? When were those chilenian orders awarded to germans? This one apparenytly before 1935, but was it pre or post WWI? How rare are those? Any information about prices on those? Thanks in advance.

 

 

PS: Am I right about Major to Oberstleutnant level, Prussian or maybe of Baden origin, or at least in a Baden unit at some time?

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by saschaw

[Snoopy]

Hello

Congratulations, I really like your new medal bar. I even like it's condition. I like that items look old,when they are old. Will you add the missing medal?

All the best

Snoopy

[Guest Rick Research]

Probably a pre-1915 Chilean award-- their students travelled to Germany to learn at the Cavalry-Signals School and such-- usually NOT Germans who went to Chile.

[Wild Card]

Hello Saschaw,

Why did you buy it? A darned nice bar without the usual awards (boooring) that shows a lot of character - my kind of bar.

As Snoopy said - ?I even like it's condition. I like that items look old,when they are old.?

Below is a similar bar which you might find interesting that may help to solve the ?what, where, why?. This one came from the Seymour Collection; and as far as I know, George never figured out, or found out, who it?s recipient was.

Best wishes and congratulations,

Wild Card

P.S. Apologies for the quality of the scan; it is the best I can do at the moment.

Edited March 30, 2008 by Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

Did YOU end up with that?

That happens to be one of the FEW bars I actually had the brains to DATE when I got a xerox of it from George-- 22 August 1985:

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee knew/know whose it was. And yes, the BMV4 was in that condition then, and the center of the Chilean award had its internal gunk petrified.

Sascha will immediately notice that the Baden 1906 Medal is on the WRONG ribbon-- and wearer was a native Badener!!!!

If yours, will Reveal All. If not, the anonymous new owner wherever he is can do his own research. This is a particularly interesting case where a well decorated officer never bothered to remount his awards after the day the war started.

[Claudio]

Hi Sascha!

I saw that bar too, but to tell you the truth I wasn't too much tempted to buy it... as a matter of fact I didn't even ask to take a closer look. But still it's a fairly uncommon combination... I saw a couple of other bars at Kai Winkler's table which were quite nice, but I did only there once to ask the price for one set (medal and ribbon bar + Tr?ger's photo, an Admiral and some documents, too). Besides Herr Winkler didn't really luck of a really typical arrogance... I really couldn't make any deals with him!

I will post later a couple of pictures I have taken there... Now I have to go to bed... it was a long trip back home!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Ok... I can't resist not to post it... actually I didn't buy it there but I picked it up directly from Zeige at the Waffenb?rse! It's a preview!!!

Enjoy....

Now I really have to go "? faire do-do"...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Wild Card]

Did YOU end up with that?

If yours, will Reveal All. If not, the anonymous new owner wherever he is can do his own research. This is a particularly interesting case where a well decorated officer never bothered to remount his awards after the day the war started.

Yes Rick, I got it back in '05.

Any information would be most appreciated.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

WHAT in God's name is all that? MULTIPLE.... 16 ribbon lapel bows????? With what-- 1 day wear disposable rosettes and rolls of zillions of 4-over-4 rows of ? lapel TUBES ?????????????

What... did you only get this guy's TRAVEL KIT?????? Surely there must be more for 365 days a year-- and Leap Year extra.

Somewhere out there, is there another fitted case with lapel minis facing left to right, and right to left, and left to right, and....

How many different duplicates could one person HAVE?????

OK, OK.... medication is kicking in....

whew.

So now the AWFUL task to try and identify a civilian.

? -- PRE-1897 (I don't see a Centenary Ribbon in there, but the spots are still popping in front of my eyes) orrrrrrr

Next of Kin Hindenburg and not Noncombatant 1870 Medal?

??? Ay caramba !!!

TELL us there weren't MEDAL bars in normal left to right AND Frackspange and...

Deep breaths. Deep breaths.

[Wild Card]

Yes Rick, I got this bar at auction in December of ?05. Actually, considering where it came from, I had a feeling that you might have seen it before; so please tell us who and what.

Claudio, about that box of ribbons. Rotate it 90 degrees to the left and you have what looks, if viewed quickly and a little out of focus, a lot like the decorations of a Soviet general. Fuzz it up a bit, and post it, turned of course, on one of the Soviet forums and see if you can get an identification.

Best wishes Gentlemen,

Wild Card

Edited March 31, 2008 by Wild Card

[Claudio]

@ Rick and Wildcard: btw the box already came with a name... Kgl. Preuss. Kommerzienrat Victor Ludwig Wrede (1818-1890 in Berlin)... see this thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25948&hl=wrede

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

Claudio: You are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo lucky to have the name. Whew!!!

OK, Wild Card's Chilean bar belonged to

Werner Freiherr von Froben

There he is from the 1914 Rank List, with his Chilean award listed. George had him ID'd back in '85, so this is just one of the many whose atrribution Thies... lost.

Leutnant 20.7.97 in Baden Leib Dragoner Rgt 20

Oberleutnant 21.4.08 was at the Cavalry-Telegraph School in 1910 with no Orders

Rittmeister 19.11.12 and commanded the Cavalry-Telegraph School 1912-13

transferred over to DR 21 1913/14 and left the army in that rank-- so he bailed at the end of 1918.

Got his KO4 between 1910-12, BMV4 the same, SA3b 1912/13, and the Chilean award 1913/14.

He received the BZ3bXmE as Rittmeister still in DR 21 on 31.10.14. After that, I don't know what happened to him-- but he was alive in 1926. Never remounted his medals.

I suspect he was the son of General der Artillerie aD Anton Freiherr von Froben (1839-1910) and Mathilde geb. Deimling (1842-19??).

So if Froben got a "CV3" then presumably what is on Sasha's bar with the French style rosette was a "CV2."

[Claudio]

There was a very interesting Spange... a bit simple but it came with the photo of the Admiral who owned it, his photograph and his ribbon bar. The top ribbon bar with the Wiederholungsspange looked completely identical with the one shown on the picture.

I asked the vendor (Kai Winkler, Mr. Email-Spam) what was the price... he just replied to me in a very derogatory way: Sechs! (six in German)... Firstly I was a bit perplexed... Sechs in German is practically pronounced like "sex" in English... maybe he wanted some a..l sex for it (hope not ), or maybe six boxes of beer cans.... but finally I realized that he might have wanted 6 thousand Euros...

Some vendors could use some kindness, if they really want to sell their prices for such money. Some vendors don?t even greet me because I never bought from them, some others they say hello with a smile? Fact is I will never buy from the first.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

others spangen of Mr. Nice. One came with all the documents... I didn't even dare to ask... If they are to bothered to answer or get easily annoyed, how about putting some price tags??

Just my 2 cents...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Stogieman]

The Saxon bar is to die for... I'd hate to even know what he wanted.

[Claudio]

Hi Stogieman!

I thought you might have liked it... it was pristine! ... and it came with the ribbon bar, too! I didn't check if it was a Godet, but it surely looked like one, considering the quality of the ribbons and decorations' mounting style.

Ciao,

Claudio

[saschaw]

Uuuuh, now here's some stuff to respond, isn't it ...

 

Thanks for all comments about my bar. I like it, would like it more if it was fresh, but at least it's an old one. Did I mention I saw many modern sewn bars? Well, if it looked better I might not have seen it anymore on sunday.

 

Wild Card, you bar's amazing - would be nice if you get better pictures of it. I wanted my father to buy it when it came up at Thies' auction, but my father wasn't to interrested in it.

 

Rick - thanks for the name to that bar, I always wondered about what guy had that combination. By the way, the 1906 medal has the CORRECT ribbon! It's just the same as the 1902 medal.

 

Claudio, congratulations to the Wrede "ribbons" - but who got the medal bar and minis?

 

Winkler is not the nicest guy, though he answers rather nice if me or my father asks him anything - I've no idea why he does, but I've never felt like anyone else does who talks to him. There were some more nice bars, S. Zimmermann had some extremely nice ones - rather expensive.

 

If the Chile orders are shown in rank lists - any ideas how to "get" my guy? An officer with RAO4, BZL3a and CV2 in 1914 doesn't sound to common ...

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

It may be a BZ3b. I haven't had time to look through the whole 1914 Rank List, but these Chilean awards are scattered all over and many seem to have been awarded after May 1914. That Brunswick cross to a Badener I thought would make a nice "easy" clue, but no luck.

I suspect it was a BZ3b and he had moved OUT of Baden units and faaaaar faaaaar away, never coming back-- which is why nothing from Baden in the war. But not in a Brunswick unit in 1914, either.

[saschaw]

Ah okay, thanks. Pity with those awards from post may 1914 ...

 

Though I'm rather sure the BZL is a 3a as there's a rest of yellow thread whereas the RAO and the CV are fixed with white thread on the upper arm. I think this does not help extremely as 3a is not less common than 3b, it's just a time issue. The RAOs were mainy awarded to Majors and to some Hauptleute, right? BZL3a was for Majors, too so this would work ...

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by saschaw

[Stogieman]

I'd like to say that with all the new garbage showing up you're almost better to be buying worn, used items these days.,..

[HeikoGrusdat]

I would like to add one more officer wearing this award from Chile.....and some more nice stuff

[HeikoGrusdat]

Details...

[Verdun16]

Now that is a nice photo. Maybe I will be lucky someday and find something as nice. Thanks for posting it,

Bryan

[Paul R]

Now that is a nice photo. Maybe I will be lucky someday and find something as nice. Thanks for posting it,

Bryan

I am surprised to see the Chilean medal ranked higher than the HKmS!

[Daniel Cole]

Who is that Ritter von.........................?