Very strange Hessen bar

[Roman Slivin]

What do you think of it medal bar?

The first impression that is a fake.

But all can not so simply?

Roman

[Roman Slivin]

:cheers:

[Deruelle]

The last ribbon looks like for Turkish Halfmoon. Very strange.

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Very very very peculiar.

[scottplen]

hello

the hesse regts used this ribbon for the LS awards! I use to have a few bars with that ribbon I will go through my old pics and see if i can find them ! but i believe that is a correct ribbon for hesse LS award!

[pinpon590]

Hello gentlemens !

The bar "23.I.1916" is really rare... I have never seen one...

Does someone know what does this date mean ?

:beer:

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Roman,

from time to time people have a luck...

I remember there was an article about the bar to the Hessen Medal long time ago in a German collectors Magazine. I will see to find it.

Best regards

Daniel

[Roman Slivin]

Hi Roman,

from time to time people have a luck...

I remember there was an article about the bar to the Hessen Medal long time ago in a German collectors Magazine. I will see to find it.

Best regards

Daniel

Dear Daniel,

I hope that it really good luck.

Probably I will receive good photos of the owner bar.

As very much it would be desirable to receive particulars about bar to a medal.

Regards,

Roman

[Guest Rick Research]

OK. Having been sent the description of this date bar from the huge (and insanely expensive) Nimmergut multi-volume set on German awards:

1) This "23.1.1916" bar was awarded to ONLY 29 actual living persons all in Hessian Infantry Regiment 118 (others went on the unit's flags). This date was the 125th jubilee of the regiment's creation.

Three noncommissioned officers, named by Nimmergut, received this as the sole enlisted recipients of the bar. 26 officers (not named) received the bar.

A regimental history of IR 118 would--hopefully--contain the names of ALL the recipients, for a process of elimination to identify the owner.

That being said, the bar does not match the example shown by Nimmergut-- yours is too LONG, and appears to have been affixed to the medal bar with little nails or something.

This is where it gets TRICKY.

With so FEW made, and no "benchmark" for what is and is not the 1916 issued model-- would we have any reason to think that a recipient alive after 1938 could not--or might even have HAD to-- have a jeweller hand make an example to replace a lost or broken original?

But how to PROVE that?

The ONLY way would be to find a list of all the recipients and match up this actual group.

I like the fact that it appears to be a "cheapo" upgrade, sticking the Hindenburg Cross in without bothering to pay for the correct sized extended metal backing plate.

But the combination is VERY odd.

The pre-war Hessian Merit Medal, and Hessian XV Years Service Cross indicate an NCO-- but the ?M3K indicates an officer.

The ONLY way this combination could be correct is

1) if Hesse continued to award military long service awards DURING the war (as Bavaria and W?rttemberg did)--

I have NO idea whether that was the case or not.

2) this NCO would have had to reach either Feldwebelleutnant or something like Zahlmeister rank to have received the Austrian award, AND

3) could not have had doubled war time totaling "XXV" years of service by discharge in 1920-- so never got the Prussian officers' long service cross.

That is a VERY narrow, very specific, and "easily" eliminated category of recipients

ifthe complete roster of those entitled to this bar is shown in the IR 118 WW1 regimental history.

After all, ANYBODY could have added a dodgy date bar to ANY Hessian General Decoration "for Bravery" at ANY time.

What HAS to be done is to verify all the OTHER awards to determine whether it was even POSSIBLE for any of the recipients to have gotten the date bar on this medal bar. All regular and dR/dL officers caan be eliminated immediately!!!!

The three career NCOs who received the date bar can, with certainty, be eliminated as "suspects" since NONE of them could or would have been of officer status by 1918 to have earned that Austrian award.

It HAS to--if not Frankensteined onto an otherwise original bar--have been awarded to an "officer" in the unit, of Warrant or administrative status barely equal to a Leutnant.

Find that regimental histroy!!!! :beer:

[Roman Slivin]

Rick,

Many thanks for your help!

I already start to search for history Hessian Infantry Regiment 118.

I can assume that swords to ?M3K specify that ?M3K has been received after 13.12.1916.

If the owner bar became the officer after 1916 to it should be then more than 45 years.

Together with bar other subjects were on sale also. While I cannot look in a picture album, but I think photos to us can to help with what that?

P.S. It would be desirable to hope for a miracle... :blush:

[Guest Rick Research]

Assuming that it is Himself in the photo under the watch-- that is a VERY early Nazi veterans association uniform, circa 1933.

His ribbons look like that might be him-- note he has an Iron Cross 1st Class and a 1918 Wound Badge.

I think he will turn out to have been a Feldwebelleutnant-- very possibly "retired" BEFORE the war, and wearing the M1913 XV Years Service Cross instead of the old model XV Years Service brooch he earned on active duty earlier. THAT would explain the lack of a 1920 XXV-- he did not remain in continuous military service.

Probably 45 or so during the war, and looks like 60 in that 1933 photo.

While such people are normally INVISIBLE on rolls, with only 26 other officers-- most of them will have been-- the commander, Majors, Captains, and so on.

[Roman Slivin]

Interesting continuation...

[Roman Slivin]

:cheers:

[Roman Slivin]

While such people are normally INVISIBLE on rolls, with only 26 other officers-- most of them will have been-- the commander, Majors, Captains, and so on.

:jumping:

[Stogieman]

So, do you now own all of these pieces?

[Roman Slivin]

Yes, these parts belong now to me.

But they in a way...

[rujab]

Hi Roman

This is The Bar from August K?hn to Frankfurt-Fechenheim

Gru?

Rudi

[Roman Slivin]

Hi Roman

This is The Bar from August K?hn to Frankfurt-Fechenheim

Gru?

Rudi

Hi Rudi,

How you managed to find out it?

MfG

Roman

[Roman Slivin]

I think, that it is different people.

Or I am mistaken?

[Roman Slivin]

Feldspange

[Guest Rick Research]

The old fellow in the circa 1933 photo is wearing the exact 5 ribbons plus one at the end that is probably some unofficial Weimar-era veterans organization award. He is wearing his old Imperial army uniform with the helmet insignia and local Hessen sleeve insignia of the Stahlhelmbund, with early Nazi "plucked chicken" eagle added to his hat, and with a swastika armband.

Notice that on the Austrian ribbon third on his ribbon bar he has a round wreath and crossed swords device-- correct, but very rarely seen for the ?M3K.

The bearded fellow is wearing the uniform of an Offizierstellvertreter.

The watch is named to a Feldwebel Kratz.

If the watch is the owner's, HE is who we need to look for as a wartime Feldwebelleutnant or Leutnant der Landwehr.

I would guess the bearded OffzStellv was a friend of his. The Austrian ribbon from his buttonhole must have been a Bravery Medal, since an Officer-Deputy would not have been entitled to the Military Merit Cross.

Oddly enough, the Bearded Friend is wearing enlisted ranks cap cockades when he should have officer (and senior "Portepee" NCOs) style like Old 1933 Man:

[rujab]

I've bet on this brooch, but unfortunetely you'd outbid me.

This brooch has been promised me since 5 years, but sadly they didn't kept

with it.

He lived 10 minutes away from me - such is life!

Yesterday I've been at the grandchildren's House again and took the rest.

Greetings

Rudi

PS.: Sorry but my English isn't that good so I have to wait for my daughter

to write things in English for me.

[Roman Slivin]

Rudi,

It is very a pity that the complete set now not full.

Probably you show other things?

Regards,

Roman

Rudi,

Es ist dass um den Satz jetzt nicht voll schade.

M?glich zeigen Sie Sie andere der Sache auf?

MfG,

Roman

[rujab]

Hi Gentleman`s

Sorry my Englisch is Bat.

Darum schreibe ich in Deutsch.

Hallo Roman

Ja das ist schade das das alles auseinander gerissen wird.

Anbei Fotos von einem Teil des Nachlasses,habe noch eine

ganze Kiste .

Wenn Du bessere Fotos haben willst sende mir Deine

privat Mail.

Habe auch noch andere Sachen von seinen Verwanten bekommen.

Sie hatten meine Adresse verlegt darum ist das in andere H?nde

gekommen,schade.

Gru?

Rudi

[dond]

Perhaps an old acquaintence of his.