Poland A collection of Polish medals

[speedytop]

Hi Anatoly13,

I think, it is not enough to say, it is a fake/it must be a fake. You can say this only if you exactly know it and you can prove it.

In different sources you can find e.g. different information about the material: gold, silver gilt, gilt, bronze gilt.

Is "real gold" always correct for the long period 1944-1992? Do you know it certainly?

I bought my first Order of Grunwald 1st class circa 1992, the two other examples later.

When I compare one of them with the cross in Post 15, for me no wide difference is recognizable there.

The picture in Post 15 you can find on different websites, e.g.:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_Krzy%C5%BCa_Grunwaldu

The pictures for comparison:

Regards

Uwe

PS: I miss marshal Golikov in the list of the book and on the polish website, I have a ribbon bar of marshal Golikov with the Order of Grunwald 1st class in the sixth row.

[Anatoly13]

Thanks for your thoughts. I have examined the medal with a 20x jewllers loupe, it's enamel. The ball finials are of uniform dimensions. Have you a picture of one you consider genuine that you could post for comparison? I think unless you have seen a genuine piece it's pretty difficult to be 100% certain.

Kris, lets try to use a needle in black "enamel". I think, that a black covering is soft. Here a picture of the original order, compare with yours!

And please post good picture of your order here.

[Christophe]

Very interesting debate, here .

please, have a look at Marshal Rokossovski's 1st Class of the "Order of the Cross of Grunwald", here (posts #5 & 6) :

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25364

Cheers.

Ch.

[Anatoly13]

Hi Anatoly13,

I think, it is not enough to say, it is a fake/it must be a fake. You can say this only if you exactly know it and you can prove it.

In different sources you can find e.g. different information about the material: gold, silver gilt, gilt, bronze gilt.

Is "real gold" always correct for the long period 1944-1992? Do you know it certainly?

I bought my first Order of Grunwald 1st class circa 1992, the two other examples later.

When I compare one of them with the cross in Post 15, for me no wide difference is recognizable there.

The picture in Post 15 you can find on different websites, e.g.:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_Krzy%C5%BCa_Grunwaldu

Regards

Uwe

PS: I miss marshal Golikov in the list of the book and on the polish website, I have a ribbon bar of marshal Golikov with the Order of Grunwald 1st class in the sixth row.

Uwe!

Which proofs do you want? Are we in the court?

We're in forum and I post my opinion here.

You have 3 Grunvald 1st cl.,Kris have another,I have one the same (copy) and many collectionars in the world have a lot of this order.

Do you have documents with yr orders?

Whose awards are in ours collection?

Look here:

Wśr?d odznaczonych ORDEREM KRZYŻA GRUNWALDU l klasy znajduje się m. in.: gen. broni Zygmunt Berling ? d-ca 1 Korpusu WP.; Bolesław Bierut ? przewodniczący Krajowej Rady Narodowej; gen. Dwight Dawid Eisenhower ? nacz. dow?dca alianckich eksped. sił zbrojnych w Europie od 1943 r.; Władysław Gomułka ? sekretarz PPR; Andriej A. Greczko ? marszałek ZSRR; Iwan J. Jaku-bowski ? marszałek ZSRR, gen. dyw. Franciszek J?źwiak ? szef Sztabu Gwardii Ludo?wej; Iwan S. Koniew ? marszałek ZSRR; gen. broni Stanisław Popławski; Konstanty Rokossowski ? marszałek ZSRR; gen. dyw. Juliusz Karol R?mmel ? dow?dca Armii ?Ł?dź", ?Warszawa" i obrony Warszawy w 1939 r.; gen. broni Władysław Sikorski ? Naczelny W?dz Polskich Sił Zbrojnych na Za-chodzie od 1939 r. (odznaczony pośmiertnie); Stefan Starzyński ? prezydent m. st. Warsza-wy w 1939 r. (odznaczony pośmiertnie); gen. broni Karol Świerczewski ? wiceminister obrony narodowej; Dmitrij F. Ustinow ? mar-szałek ZSRR; Aleksander M. Wasilewski ? marszałek ZSRR; Wanda Wasilewska ? lite-ratka, przewodnicząca Związku Patriot?w Polskich w ZSRR; Gieorgij Żuk?w ? marszałek

ZSRR; gen. broni Michał Rola-Żymierski ? Naczelny Dow?dca WP

Groups of awards of these people are stored in museums.

You are right - in the last years of PRL this order was produced in Warshawa from not gold.

This is the way and opportunity for sellers for sell copies as originals

1961-1987 - 12 awarded ( Gagarin,Tereshkova,other cosmonauts ...)

Edited July 5, 2008 by Anatoly13

[Kris D]

The mention of Gen Władysław Sikorski's posthumous decoration is interesting, had he not so tragically died would he have accepted a decoration from the communists ? I doubt it! Had he lived & been unwise enough to return to post war communist Poland he would have probably shared the fate of many others - a term of imprisonment or worse.

Edited July 5, 2008 by Kris D

[speedytop]

Hi Anatoly13,

"Are we in the court?"

No!!

But:

"I see fakes" "-Order of Grunwald First Class, -Order of Grunwald Second Class"

That is fact statement, and not opinion.

I'm a collector and a researcher. and we all must make a distinction between fact and opinion clearly.

First you have said "real gold", now you say "produced in Warshawa from not gold" too. In silver gilt, bronze gilt, both?

Do you know, how many they produced? I think more than the awarded pieces.

And where are your proofs for the Order of Grunwald Second Class?

I think, that we all need some more information about the material, the dimensions, the weight, the design.

I do not have a problem, if these are copies, but I would like to know it and must not believe it.

Hi Christophe, and have a look at Post 7.

Regards

Uwe

Please excuse my bad English

[Anatoly13]

It is remarkable, that we not in court!

If you want - I'm sure that this items are fake or copies ( it is pleasant to whom )

I simply wished to help you and it turns out, that I should prove now the opinion and spend here lecture.

Sorry I have not mach time for that and my English is too far from perfect too.

Lets wait other collegues in this topic,may be from Poland.

I promise, that if I was not right - I shall publicly apologize and I shall eat my hat.

[Kris D]

This is your picture, Kris :

It seems dark and light falls sideways.

And picture of the same order from russian site ( I can't be sure abt originality too ) - just for example of a qualitative picture.

Very nice but look at the file seize, if every picture on my site was that huge it would take forever to load. I have tried to limit the seize of pictures to ensure quick loading times. Regarding the quality of the photo, point taken.

[Anatoly13]

Very nice but look at the file seize, if every picture on my site was that huge it would take forever to load. I have tried to limit the seize of pictures to ensure quick loading times. Regarding the quality of the photo, point taken.

No problem Kris!

But the size and quality of pictures is insufficient for definition of authenticity of other items.

I see you don't need that.

Your choise.

Good Luck!

:cheers:

[Megan]

It is not a cause for quarrelling or apologising, and I do hope nobody has taken offence. It is a chance for all of us to share our thoughts and to try to understand further how to distinguish between the genuine article and a copy.

Like many people, what I post on my website is reduced in size/quality for ease of use - but I usually have larger high-quality pictures to allow more detailed examination (most of which are of a size such that they need reduction to even be uploaded here!). And I don't want any 'fake' items there!!!! I have gone and had a close look at my images of the Order of the Grunwald Cross... I think they're OK... but it's always difficult to tell without (and even with) the item in hand.

[RedMaestro]

Perhaps, Kris, you can send better pictures of the order plus some measurements (weight, dimensions, etc.) to Prof. Wesolowski and see if he can give you an opinion. Or maybe you can even send him the actual medal. I don't know if he does authentifications like many of the soviet dealers, but I am sure he would be willing to help.

-Alex

Edited July 5, 2008 by RedMaestro

[Kris D]

Perhaps, Kris, you can send better pictures of the order plus some measurements (weight, dimensions, etc.) to Prof. Wesolowski and see if he can give you an opinion. Or maybe you can even send him the actual medal. I don't know if he does authentifications like many of the soviet dealers, but I am sure he would be willing to help.

-Alex

Thank you for your suggestions. Pictures & dimensions etc are not a bad idea. I would not be too keen on sending the actual medal the cost of postage insurance & possible customs duties (UK - USA & vice versa) make this impractical.

[Kris D]

It is not a cause for quarrelling or apologising, and I do hope nobody has taken offence. It is a chance for all of us to share our thoughts and to try to understand further how to distinguish between the genuine article and a copy.

Quite right. I have taken no offence & hope I have caused none. It would be a very dull world if everyone had the same opinion.

[seb16trs]

Lady and Gents !

Do you know that, for example ,Order of Grunvald 1st class was awarded 59 times only!

There are a few people who just SAW original ! I never saw.All that huge quantity of these order which is on sale now - modern copies.

I cannot even imagine how many one such award can cost. 200 000 euro? 400 000 ?

Kris,how many you paid for yours? I am sorry for a tactless question. I don't remember in my collection's life this order in sale.It made from real gold in Mondvor after WW2 and awarded people were high ranked generals and first persons of the countries.

This is your picture, Kris :

It seems dark and light falls sideways.

And picture of the same order from russian site ( I can't be sure abt originality too ) - just for example of a qualitative picture.

I might be wrong but 1st class is made of solid gold, 2nd and 3rd of solid silver. I've one 1st class, in Germany they're listed as "1992 sammleranfertigung", i.e. collector copy. I had several of these in hands and they're not in silver, just cast metal..

[seb16trs]

In different sources different quantities of awarded are specified. I think it is because there were awardings cities, military units, and also small quantity awardings in last PRL years.

the figures change following the dates specified for calculating total amounts. PRL did award commemo medals until 1992.

The definitive reference is Stephan Oberleitner. A seller propose his 3books on allegro.pl (domel103)

[bolgarin]

Hi everybody. First of all i want to say thanks to Anatoly because he take in his hands the debates about?fakes?(copyes)?or?not?fakes?this?awards?are?and?spend?some?of?his?time?to?

prove?that?some?

of?awards?are?not?normal.....

I want to tell a small story from my collection life. In about 4 years ago i visit very beautifull poland city Krakov. Of course as a collector (my thematic is all socialistic period) i find military-antique shop which was specialised in orders and medals. Really i was shocked!!!! On the walls i find a great amout of ALL poland socialistiс period awards. For example Grunwald order 1 class i find in about 8-10 items. I find in this shop Virtuti military?orders all?classes in quantity.?All poland medals in ideal conditions were on the

walls.?So?if?i?have?money?i?will?close?my?collection?of?poland?awards?in?1?day.?

But?it?will?be?not?collection?

of?original?items,?it?will?be?the?collection?of?fakes?and?copyes.?

As i know in modern Poland exist some small manufactures in which all awards of soc and pre-war oland produced for sale........Today the high wave of this "awards" come to Moscow. In Moscow faleristik club you can purchase for small money many very rare Poland awards. But?all the sellers honestly say that this awards, are fakes or modern copyes.......

So you can believe, can not believe but situation with Poland theme is very difficult. Some times you can?say?for?sure original?this?poland item?or?not?original?only?because?of?you?collectors?experience.?

Thanks everybody.

P.S.

Please Kris tell - are you really think that you Virtuty that was discussed in this topik is original?

Edited July 6, 2008 by bolgarin

[seb16trs]

first, we must fight with good documentation:

[Christophe]

Hi to all,

I know the picture is very bad... But, here is a real Virtuti one.

Comparison is easy with the one previously posted by Kris, and the one Anatoli posted from an auction catalog (September 2005).

Cheers.

Ch.