Order of Virtuti Militari, 2nd Class obverse

[Riley1965]

This is the 4th pice of the PRL VM in my collection. All I need is the Grand Cross which I will have by then end of the year.

OBVERSE

Doc

Edited July 8, 2008 by Riley1965

[Riley1965]

NOW THE REVERSE...

Doc

Edited July 8, 2008 by Riley1965

[Riley1965]

The case for the Order of Virtuti Militari, 2nd Class

Doc

Edited July 8, 2008 by Riley1965

[Anatoly13]

I m sorry,but this order is a copy.

[Riley1965]

Anatoly,

I am sorry but you are wrong on this one. The scan may be bad. This is the genuine item from Doc Wes' personal collection. He doesn't sell me any copies. i wish you could hold and see it in person.

Doc

[Anatoly13]

May be,may be...

Doc, pls post big scan as posible without ribbon. ;)

[Riley1965]

Anatoly,

Here's the Obverse of the VM II Class

Doc

Edited July 8, 2008 by Riley1965

[Riley1965]

And the Reverse...

Doc

Edited July 8, 2008 by Riley1965

[Anatoly13]

Dear Doc!

This is copy 100 %.

I'm sorry.

The dealers will shoot me soon. :ninja:

[Riley1965]

Dear Anatoly,

I'm sorry but you are 100% wrong this time. I wish you could look at it under a lighted magnifyer to see the detail. The scan and resizing it to make it fit the forum size limit doesn't do it justice. You really need to have this gem in hand to see that it is genuine.

Take Care my friend,

Doc

[new world]

Doc,

I've never seen real one close, but your cross looks really sloppy.

Just look at the place where top section is attached to the cross - there's bad soldering job. I would expect better quality on such high level award.

Plus, this type being awarded less than 20 times, what are the chances of you getting real one?

William

[Stogieman]

It's never fun to find out that someone you knew and trusted may have pulled a fast one. I'd like to think that the fellow who sold it to Doc didn't know either, but that's speculation on my part. The only thing I will add is the quality of the enamel work on the example shown by Doc doesn't seem up to a level as this example of the Grand Cross I just found on the net in only a few seconds:

[hipnos]

It's never fun to find out that someone you knew and trusted may have pulled a fast one. I'd like to think that the fellow who sold it to Doc didn't know either, but that's speculation on my part. The only thing I will add is the quality of the enamel work on the example shown by Doc doesn't seem up to a level as this example of the Grand Cross I just found on the net in only a few seconds:

Yeah!! It seems that if this is made New (as it looks) by the National Polish Mint, they must have some guys in training. Not a good job already...as you say, for a high (Highest??) order. You can Look at the Orders in the old palace in Warsaw and you can?t even be in doubt anymore.

Sorry...that happens to everybody, sometimes...

Miguel

[new world]

here's real cross of the same PRL issue, you can see the difference in quality.

William

[Riley1965]

Guys,

Like I said, The scan and resize just doesn't do it justice. Under examination under a lighted magnifyer the detail is awesome. The enamel is spectacular. Plus the source is the only person I would ever trust to make a Polish Order & medal purchase from. Dr. Wesolowski is world reknown in the Polish ODM community. You have to know him and see this VM in person to know that it is the genuine article. I respect your opinions, however in this case and the Breast Star for the Grand Cross I am not swayed. Thanks for your input.

Doc

[new world]

Doc,

can you post non-resized pic of this area on the front?

William

[RedMaestro]

Just a thought, perhaps taking an actual picture might be better than just a scan. You might get more detail that way, especially of the enamel.

-Alex

[Ed_Haynes]

For most purposes, scans are better, but they do not do justice to the enamel. But without a sophisticatet setup most digital photos show little detail.

[Alex K]

Having watched this thread, I must admit from my own experience, that the originally posted decoration does not exhibit the quality that one would expect from a high end national award. Scans etc may well distort the image to a degree, but there appears to be a distinct lack of quality to this piece. It looks like a cheaply gilded piece with somewhat sloppy soldering. My apologies but IMHO it ain't real.

regards

Alex K

[Riley1965]

Gentlemen,

I have heard and respect you and your positions. However, Having examined the piece repeatedly and confirming its authenticity with Dr. Wesolowski it is genuine. I know Dr. Wesolowski and his sources in Poland well enough to know that he would NEVER sell me a copy. This is a man who conducts seminars on fake/copy VMs. So I've heard enough and this discussion is closed. No bad feelings towards any of you.

Doc

[new world]

Doc,

I assume this is the same person who sold you the cross in question:

http://stores.ebay.com/POLISH-MILITARY-DECORATIONS

Check out Item number: 250037085156 - it seems to be of better quality than the one you have in your collection.

Doesn't this look suspicious that the seller offers so many high-level awards at the same time??? For such rare awards there has to be better way to sell than eBay. Imagine someone selling 10 HSU stars or 10 Suvorov orders on eBay...

[RedMaestro]

Actually, his real website is this:

http://www.polishmilitaria.com/

I think he sells the stuff on ebay just as another way of advertising. He does have quite a lot of high-end medals.

-Alex

[new world]

Actually, his real website is this:

http://www.polishmilitaria.com/

I think he sells the stuff on ebay just as another way of advertising. He does have quite a lot of high-end medals.

-Alex

Some of the listings on that web site make one scratch one's head:

"SU2072 - Soviet Order of the Patriotic War,gold,#2762720,hallmarked. Price: $420.00" - He advertises 1985 version as gold WWII issue. Market price for 1985 OPW is around $30-40.

"Imperial Russia, Order of St.George,non-Christian,silver metal.Price: $150.00" - St George crosses sell for $500+ these days, there must be a reason why such "bargain" has not been sold.

Plus, there are no pics withe any of the listing, - what's the reason for this?

[leigh kitchen]

No photos with the listings, a mish-mash listing of stuff all over the place anyway.

If nothing else I feel the presentation indicates a certain disdain for the prospective customer & a lack of openess - these are just a couple of the reasons that I don't buy there.

As for an expert authenticating an item when he's the person selling it & especially when others cast doubt on its authenticity - I prefer independant expertise.

Edited July 10, 2008 by leigh kitchen