Baden Bar - 1870/1871

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Here is a new toy

Cordial greetings,

[Stijn David]

And a few more pictures of this nice 5 piece bar

1) The iron cross 2 nd. class - 1870 with 25 years oakleaf cluster

More to follow ...

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Picture nr. 3 - image of the "STRASSBURG" clasp

More to follow

[Stijn David]

Pic. nr. 4

The Baden - Felddienstausszeichnung with clasp "1870-1871"

more to follow ...

[pinpon590]

Here is a new toy

It's a nice toy ! :love:

[Stijn David]

another image

[Stijn David]

Hello,

The bar does also consist out of the following awards:

* EK 2 (1870 issue) 2 nd. class + 25 years Oak leaf cluster

* Kriegsdenkmunze 1870-1871 (with marking " AUS EROBERTEN GESCHUTZ ") + Bar "STRASSBURG"

* Felddienstauszeichnung + Bar "1870 - 1871"

* Centenarmedaille

* Jubilaumsmedaille (Baden) - 1902

I think we can easely say that this bar did belong towards a 1870/1871 veteran who did see some action in that war and did belong towards the Baden Felddivision.

All information is offcoarse welcome

Cordial greetings,

[Paul R]

How many of the 25 clasps were awarded?

[Stijn David]

the oak leaf cluster

[Stijn David]

Hello,

The EK 2 is a bit rough => can it be id'ed towards a certain producer?

Cordial greetings,

[saschaw]

Stijn...

I'm sorry, but that seems to be a eCrap bar.

The EK is in my humble opinion of a certain producer: the so called "raritaetensammlerclub". I neither like the whole medal bar, looks newly mounted to me. If the bar were good I think I would have placed a bid. I hope you can return the bar... ?

Though, could you please add a nice picture of the bar's reverse? From what I saw on the crappy eBay pictures it indeed looked very "club"-ish.

Edited September 2, 2008 by saschaw

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Oh my? => any others who can comment on the bar? Here is a pictrue of the reverse and how it is sewn.

Cordial greetings,

Edited September 2, 2008 by Stijn David

[Stijn David]

Hello,

And another picture as per request.

A good friend has seen pictures of the bar (better ones then the ones that where shown and he had no problem with the bar, the attachement of the Strassburg bar, etc.... in first he also doubted but after seing the other pictures he said no problem. The ribbons do not light up under UV, neither do the sewing threads, etc... etc ... )

We can offcoarse be wrong and i would be happy to hear all comments

Cordial greetings,

[saschaw]

We can offcoarse be wrong and i would be happy to hear all comments

As I can be.

I'm looking forward to other's comments, especially on the EK - I like the oaks neither. Could you please add a picture of the whole reverse without angles etc.?

[Stijn David]

Hi Sascha,

Gerne, anbei das erw?nschte Bild => i will make a better one as this one is a bit blurry (damn i can't really make good pictures :-( )

I have checked the way the medals are attached underneath the ribbon, they are sewn onto the bar and can not be removed. Is this a sign for the faker you name?

Cordial greetings,

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello all:

I hate to also be the bearer of bad news, but the 25 year oakleaves do not look like any that I have ever seen before. In fact, they look to be rather crude (perhaps cast).

The pin on the reverse of the bar is also unlike one that I have seen before (these were usually rather standard during this time period).

I believe that Sascha may be on to something here. I for one trust his judgement (especially regarding items from Baden).

Without personally inspecting the rest of the bar though, it would be difficult for me to determine how/when it was made.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Tom Y]

I'm rather skeptical of the EK too and have never seen Oakleaves like those.

[dond]

He's talking about these guys: http://cgi.ebay.de/Seltene-bayerische-Orde...id=p3286.c0.m14

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello all:

I see that a scientific analysis is requested regarding the 25 Year Oak Leaves.

Without handling the piece to weigh and measure it, I can't provide any except to state that this particular item is unlike ANY known originals. Unless this particular one-of-a-kind privately made piece has been tucked-away since 1895, no one else has ever seen one like it either and has never published a record of it.

To "prove" that it is not original is impossible, unless I caught the individual in the process of making it yesterday, took the piece as evidence, took photographs, and had witnesses sign statements supporting my claim. This would be necessary because most asuredly, later-on the forger will certainly deny that they made the piece in question.

What I have come to rely on are texts regarding the subject matter (old and new), auction catalogues (old and new), the viewing of pieces in collections, and the opinions of fellow collectors who specialize in certain areas (Iron crosses are not my particular "specialty").

I don't mean to take the fun out of collecting, but if we are not honest with fellow collectors, then the same mistakes will be made again and again by others. I know that I have made a great many mistakes collecting, but I hopefully grow from them and hopefully become a bit wiser for the future.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Schießplatzmeister]

Sorry folks:

I didn't mean to be so abrupt with my last post [sometimes I love to hear myself talk (write)].

I think this would be a good point for members to post photos of their original 25 Year Oak Leaves. It can easily be shown what is genuine, so that those pieces will be the standard, and so that a poorly cast forgery will be easier for folks to spot (by deduction). Not science, but the closest thing we could probably come up with.

Tom, I know that you can point us in the right direction!

I apologize to all of the non-EK folks for de-railing the discussion regarding the group which originlly started this post.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Thank you for the informative response on the bar. Is it not quite well possible that the original attached EK 2 (1870) and oak leaf cluster where removed => sold seperatly and on a later point of time this bar has gotten a new example?

I mean, it is not because the bar has 1 wrong piece that the complete bar is wrong? Does the sewing look period? The only award that can be removed easely is the EK 2. All otehr peices are sewn towards the bar directly.

A Baden friend told me no problem with the bar, nice period piece with dirt on the ribbons in the correct place, etc... etc ....

Just a tought offcoarse?

Cordial greetings,

[saschaw]

Thanks for the additional picture and SPM; thanks for the kind words.

Does the sewing look period?

Yes, it looks like 2007-2008 period. The bar is as typical for the club as it can get. The backing is "club", the EK is "club" and the oaks may be "club", haven't focused too much by now on these. They seem to be cast which is a bad sign and they don't match any ones I've seen before.

I appreciate Mr. Thamm's opinion and his immense knowledge, but here he's wrong. The bar is a modern put-together, mixed with "good" and "bad" decorations. And those are the most dangerous ones...

:banger:

[saschaw]

Here my oaks - real silver, hollow and coined. There is some variation but without provenance I wouldn't buy anything that is way different than this:

[saschaw]

Browsing old eBay auctions, I found this by coincidence. Who was the first seller of this bar? A "raritaetensammlerclub". I really haven't found this auction until now, haven't been to that auction link for about three months - but the bar looked that typical...

q.e.d.? q.e.d!

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...em=140237937523

:violent: :violent:

Edited September 3, 2008 by saschaw

[Tom Y]

Here are 2 other styles, both silver plated.