EK 1939 WW2 1941 Russian Robbery and Murder Medal Iron Cross

[VINLAND30]

I found this medal in aknights cross box as the GI found it.I bought it from a 101st Airborne vet they found it in a SS officers house while clearing it.I was told only 500 were made and dropped on the Eastern front.Does anyone know anything about it? Or value?

[leigh kitchen]

Don't know anythng about it, but they look interesting - a WWII version of the allies WWI souvenir offerings which referred to the beastliness of the enemy.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo VINLAND30,

first you have posted your thread in the TEST section where you might not get to many responses.

Second, use of the Forum "Search" function, would lead you to this:-

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2309...rder+Iron+Cross

EDIT: I think the translation is "For Robbery and Murder"

I found this medal in a knights cross box as the GI found it.

I bought it from a 101st Airborne vet they found it in a SS officers house while clearing it.

I was told only 500 were made and dropped on the Eastern front.

Buy the piece, not the story, but, before you buy anything do some basic research,

I, like Danny 70, feel these are modern post WW2 Fantasy pieces,

why only 500 if for propaganda purposes the Eastern Front would have been seeded with them.

And they turn up as I class pieces as well.

They have obviously had some time spent on them in manufacturing,

why bother you were trying to degrade the enemy's

high award, for propaganda purpose, you would not waste time and money on quality for that purpose.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Edited October 7, 2008 by Kev in Deva

[Danny70]

Hi VINLAND30,

'For Robbery and Murder'

These were supposedly propaganda pieces produced by the Russians, but many (myself included) find this hard to believe. Why would the piece be so well made? The first ones seen were of 3 piece construction as were the standard iron cross but crude copies of these in one piece are floating around too. They also appear in well made 1st class examples. It does not make sense that so much effort be put into producing such a piece for propaganda purposes.

There is also no known evidence that these were ever produced during the war and until some solid proof is unearthed, I for one, refuse to believe they are anything but well made fantasy pieces.

Regards - Danny

Edited October 7, 2008 by Danny70

[VINLAND30]

Hallo VINLAND30,

first you have posted your thread in the TEST section where you might not get to many responses.

Second, use of the Forum "Search" function, would lead you to this:-

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2309...rder+Iron+Cross

EDIT: I think the translation is "For Robbery and Murder"

Buy the piece, not the story, but, before you buy anything do some basic research,

I, like Danny 70, feel these are modern post WW2 Fantasy pieces,

why only 500 if for propaganda purposes the Eastern Front would have been seeded with them.

And they turn up as I class pieces as well.

They have obviously had some time spent on them in manufacturing,

why bother you were trying to degrade the enemy's

high award, for propaganda purpose, you would not waste time and money on quality for that purpose.

Kevin in Deva.

I understand your opinion and respect it. I though also when they told me about it at first that it was untrue. After seeing all the guys stuff and hearing the history I know that the cross was brought back with him and they have no reason to lie about it.In this day and age of collecting I question everything myself and you have to be skeptical of everything.I think there were many forms or propaghnda during WW2 but you have to understand a Russians mind to understand why they would make such a thing.A award or medal to a Russian was a high honor and achevment and to discrace and dishonor one of the enemys highest awards would be the equivlent of burning the American flag today.Being a quality made medal is also allot of phsychogy involved too it was not just a piece of junk if a guy picked it up he would not just throw it away like a propaghanda leaflet he would probably put it in his pocket and bring it home and think about it or show it to other soldiers.It is not just a cross with with a statement there is allot more involved and meant by it. I also forgot to add it has a magnetic core.Thank you for your input and take care.

[Paul R]

Thanks for sharing this piece with us. I will move this thread into the Iron Cross section, where it will get more exposure to the people who might have more to add.

[VINLAND30]

Thanks for sharing this piece with us. I will move this thread into the Iron Cross section, where it will get more exposure to the people who might have more to add.

Thank you very much for your help. Sorry my error in translation Robbery not Rape. This is a very interesting forum to hear all the different opinions. For all the non belivers the family even offered an affidavit that their family attorney would draw up attesting to the fact the guy brought the medal home from the war.

[Wilco]

First show me the documents from Soviet ministry that proofs this being true. I don't say it could not be true, but to my knowledge there has until now never been any proof of these facts.

Edited October 8, 2008 by Wilco

[joe campbell]

corrected.

Edited October 8, 2008 by joe campbell

[Chris Boonzaier]

For all the non belivers the family even offered an affidavit that their family attorney would draw up attesting to the fact the guy brought the medal home from the war.

And how would they know pops did not pick it up on a vacation in hawaii in 1986, or at the antique shop in the local shopping mall in 1992?

The affidavit would not swing it for me. The hobby is full of these claiming all kinds of things.

[leigh kitchen]

Not so much a "fantasy piece" but a piece with it's own ironic or political agenda then, if not an original propaganda piece?

[VINLAND30]

And how would they know pops did not pick it up on a vacation in hawaii in 1986, or at the antique shop in the local shopping mall in 1992?

The affidavit would not swing it for me. The hobby is full of these claiming all kinds of things.

Every one is entiltled to their own opinion but your opinion and the truth are two different things sorry to say.Skeptics are usually safer in the collecting world but some times they miss the boat too.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Every one is entiltled to their own opinion but your opinion and the truth are two different things sorry to say.Skeptics are usually safer in the collecting world but some times they miss the boat too.

Thats one boat I don't mind missing....

[Danny70]

Firstly, did you actually talk to and receive the medal from the veteran himself or just family members?

I accept that the family believe 100% that this was one of his war bring backs, and that you believe them, but as Chris has previously stated, the veteran himself could easily have added this piece at a later date without ever mentioning it to his family.

Every one is entiltled to their own opinion but your opinion and the truth are two different things sorry to say...

How can you say with such absolute certainty that Chris's opinion is not the truth? At the end of the day, all you have is someones word that it is a genuine war bring-back... People can be mistaken.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to find out for definite that these crosses are what they are claimed to be, but until some stronger evidence than this comes along, I remain unconvinced.

Regards - Danny

Edited October 9, 2008 by Danny70

[VINLAND30]

Thats one boat I don't mind missing....

LOL no problemb I don't expect anyone to belive me but I know where I got it and who it came from.I hope that others out there who may have one will find some usefull information from this posting.Also if they were fantasy there would be allot more on the market than just a handful.

[VINLAND30]

Firstly, did you actually talk to and receive the medal from the veteran himself or just family members?

I accept that the family believe 100% that this was one of his war bring backs, and that you believe them, but as Chris has previously stated, the veteran himself could easily have added this piece at a later date without ever mentioning it to his family.

How can you say with such absolute certainty that Chris's opinion is not the truth? At the end of the day, all you have is someones word that it is a genuine war bring-back... People can be mistaken.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to find out for definite that these crosses are what they are claimed to be, but until some stronger evidence than this comes along, I remain unconvinced.

Regards - Danny

[VINLAND30]

Not so much a "fantasy piece" but a piece with it's own ironic or political agenda then, if not an original propaganda piece?

Every one has their own thoughts and I respect that I just hope more information will come to light some day.

[VINLAND30]

I spoke to the vet himself he is 93 years old he swears by it and I belive him his son swears by it also.I agree vets picked things up in the late 50's 60's 70's etc. I have had that happen before with a guy who said he had a Mussolini hat and it turned out to be a General's hat and most of these guys are so old they don't remember much of anything.His son played with the cross when he was a boy he even remembers it clearly because it was different for the others his father has.I got allot of stuff fom this guy including SS collar tabs which he collected during the war all have been correct and not single bad one.I am 100% sure he brought this back from the war.It dosen't matter if others don't belive me I know what I have if these were fantasy there would be allot made and alllot more around.I don't know how they made them they ? Even down to the paint is exact as a German one.I found a Russian web site that confirms the made them but it does not say how many only that they distributed them on the front .It did not say anything about first class ones just these and it did not give a number of how many were made.I hope any one who has one will post theirs and their history about it.

This web site sold one here

Wwii Russian Propaganda Iron Cross, Robbery & Murd

WWII RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA IRON CROSS, ROBBERY & MURD WWII Russian Iron Cross for robbery and murder propaganda. Rare Russian issue propaganda iron cross, German iron cross with words "" FUR RAUB UND MORD"" (robbery and murder). $150 - 300 March Militaria & Firearm Auction Saturday, March 1st at 10:00AM EST Preview The Entire Catalog @ www.AffiliatedAuctions.com Over 600 Lots: Edged Weapons, Firearms, Badges & Awards, Photos, Uniforms, Helmets, Documents & Ephemera

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/CatalogPrint.asp?aid=10979

[VINLAND30]

Thanks for sharing this piece with us. I will move this thread into the Iron Cross section, where it will get more exposure to the people who might have more to add.

Here is the other posting with more information.Thank you very much for your help. I am still learning how to use this website.Take care

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2309...rder+Iron+Cross

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo VINLAND30

Just because an item gets sold on a web-site that is not a guarantee that the item is 100% original

to the time and place, the sellers blurb says it is from.

In your initial post you say:-

I was told only 500 were made and dropped on the Eastern front.

1. Why only 500? and remember the Eastern Front was a very big front.

2. Dropped! what in boxes out of aircraft?, not a very good way of getting the items into enemy hands,

and surely devices like this would have been required to have been handed into the whatever units intelligence officer,

Not saying that all would obey the regulations, but, if even a couple were handed in they would probably have been

documented and orders issued with regards them being collected up, and anybody found to have one could face

disciplinary action for holding enemy propaganda.

You posted the item here on the forum and asked for opinions with regards this piece, opinions have been duly given,

now, the choice is yours whether to accept them or disregard them, but, until there is some documented proof

and not hearsay then this is one item, I wont bother spending my money on.

Kevin in Deva.

[VINLAND30]

Hallo VINLAND30

Just because an item gets sold on a web-site that is not a guarantee that the item is 100% original

to the time and place, the sellers blurb says it is from.

In your initial post you say:-

1. Why only 500? and remember the Eastern Front was a very big front.

2. Dropped! what in boxes out of aircraft?, not a very good way of getting the items into enemy hands,

and surely devices like this would have been required to have been handed into the whatever units intelligence officer,

Not saying that all would obey the regulations, but, if even a couple were handed in they would probably have been

documented and orders issued with regards them being collected up, and anybody found to have one could face

disciplinary action for holding enemy propaganda.

You posted the item here on the forum and asked for opinions with regards this piece, opinions have been duly given,

now, the choice is yours whether to accept them or disregard them, but, until there is some documented proof

and not hearsay then this is one item, I wont bother spending my money on.

Kevin in Deva.

Wow it sounds like every German soldier stood straight in line no souvineers for them.I don't know what army you are refering to but it sounds like one that you may have seen in a movie to think that German's were not allowed and did not pick up souvineers or trophies of war is obsurd and ridiculous.They did not even have food or proper equipment sent to them on the eastern front in nearing the end do you think some one cared or not if they picked up a medal like this.This medal is 1941 or later not 1936. Honestly I think the German soldiers were not robots they were no different than their enemy.I agree about proff with you but for such low number of produced items there many not be much proff nor is there any proff of other items produced in low numbers during the war like jewlers copy knights crosses.I am 100% sure the item is authentic period. I think it is priceless to me and I have not tried to sell it nor market it.I was just looking for information.Thank you for your input and have a good day.

[Guest Rick Research]

"I am 100% sure the item is authentic period."

Congratulations!

That is MUCH better than the collective experience of collectors across the globe who have been collecting-- and much more to the point-- RESEARCHING-- for decades.

Since there has NEVER been, in my 40 years experience, ANY "disccussion" of these that did NOT begin with the foregone and unsupported "conclusion" that

"I am 100% sure the item is authentic period."

There really isn't any POINT in any additional waste of time on this, any more than the LAST time one of these "treasures" came up, nor the next and the next and the next and the next.

Have a happy life, one and all! :catjava:

[Kev in Deva]

Wow it sounds like every German soldier stood straight in line no souvineers for them.I don't know what army you are refering to but it sounds like one that you may have seen in a movie to think that German's were not allowed and did not pick up souvineers or trophies of war is obsurd and ridiculous.They did not even have food or proper equipment sent to them on the eastern front in nearing the end do you think some one cared or not if they picked up a medal like this.

This medal is 1941 or later not 1936. Honestly I think the German soldiers were not robots they were no different than their enemy.I agree about proff with you but for such low number of produced items there many not be much proff nor is there any proff of other items produced in low numbers during the war like jewlers copy knights crosses.I am 100% sure the item is authentic period. I think it is priceless to me and I have not tried to sell it nor market it.I was just looking for information.Thank you for your input and have a good day.

Hallo VINLAND30,

you are certainly allowed to hold your own opinion with regards your "treasure" and you might be surprised at the discipline and dedication to orders in the German Military, that's one of the reasons they were able to hold out for as long as they did inWW2 on the Eastern Front.

But many of us, in the collecting field (and not just in the TR period,) are very wary of these "treasures" that have nothing behind them to corroborate them, only word of mouth, if you care to look at the TR Fakes section you will also see a number of fantasy items" all being offered by unscrupulous sellers to gullible novice and even experienced collectors to obtain their hard earned cash.

Seeing you have this ultra rare piece in your collection, I suppose its off to search for the MEGA rare SS Submarine badge next.? Please let us know when you find it and have a nice day.

Kevin in Deva.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Still think this is a big lemon, another one on the market....

http://www.invaluable.co.uk/auction-lot/-1-c-39ECE8EA17?utm_source=invuk_kwalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=keywordalertlive&utm_term=2

[Jock Auld]

Chris,

Looking at your link it is very well made! If it was made from scrap parts or original frames and the like I would have thought the EK fraternity would have nailed down where or from what it was manufactured. That is a lot of effort for not a lot of gain, the workmanship appears top notch. If it is a post war creation I wonder how many EK in circulation or in collections that are considered good are actually bent? Period or not it demonstrates the possibilities of what a skilled craftsman can create. I have not seen one of these before now, you would think more would have been seen by the hobby to the point that it was common knowledge or maybe it is and I am just way behind the curve?!

Jock