Bavarian medal bar group in original case

[Claudio]

Dear forumites,

I'd like to introduce my newest addition to my medal bar collection; it is quite a nice group complete group, although it would be impossible to research the officer's name. In fact a BMVO4x (over 26'000 pieces awarded during and immediately after WWI) with a WH DA 4 is not enough to find a name for this bar.

Here's the bar's description:

? Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1909)

? Bayern, Bayerisches Milit?rverdienstorden, 4. Kl. mit Schwertern (OEK 410), Herst. JL Jakob Leser, Punzen 950 Silber, Auflagen im Medallion in Gold

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer mit Schwertern (OEK 3803/1), Hersteller L. NBG (Christian Lauer, N?rnberg)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, DA-Wehrmacht 4 Jahre (OEK 3855)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Erinnerungsmedaille an den 13.03.38, Anschluss ?sterreich (OEK 3516)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 01.10.1938, Anschluss Sudetenland (OEK 3517)

? Bayern, Goldene Hochzeits-Erinnerungsm?nze, 1921-1935, (OEK 552) E

Claudio

[Claudio]

another picture of the group without the case... As you might have noticed this group was on sale on Niemann's online catalogue a couple of weeks ago.

[Claudio]

a picture of the back...

[Claudio]

a close up of the MVO4x's obverse... a Jakob Leser piece with very nice Golden device in the medallion and the typical translucent and beautiful blue enamel (a bit ruined, though)...

I am sure Rick will like it!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Riley1965]

:jumping: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! That's a BEAUTIFUL bar!!!

I need to find an Austrian, Saxon or Bavarian Bar.

Doc

[Paul C]

Nice pickup. I saw it and debated about getting it, but decided against it since it is not tracable. May I use your picture in my thread on tracing medalbar?

[Guest Rick Research]

Not... YET.

Somewhere in the Wittelsbach family archives there is probably a long-forgotten list of who those medals were handed out to in the 1920s...

and as the Rolls (and Seniority Lists) keep being found...

many things that WERE "impossible" have now become possible.

All it takes is a Research Gnome FINDING and then TYPING OUT the right pieces of the more and more complete jigsaw puzzle of data.

This is what we can tell so far, just looking at the combination:

This officer was not commissioned before 1913-- no M1911 Luitpold Jubilee Medal (fairly sure even F?hnriche still got it as awards stretched into final ones handed out in 1912). He was almost certainly commissioned before 1916-- gold centered BMV4X. While I suppose a lucky 1918 recipient might have gotten an early war one returned and reissued out again, I've never encountered such a verified case-- I think any returned gold centered ones would have been KEPT and only the late war silver gilt pieces issued from late 1916 on.

So:

Leutnant 1914, 1915 = probably born 1893/4.

charakterisiert Oberleutnant aD 1920

back as Hauptmann n(or Rittmeister) (E) circa 1935

Major (E) circa 1940

Oberstleutnant (S) 1943/44.

Now as it happens, Glenn has found the 1 May 1940 "Dienstalterliste B" which is for all such (E) officers. No index, of course but it is only a matter of TIME and EFFORT.

I agree that Bavarian Majors (E) with BMV4Xs would be in the dozens and dozens... but IF (oh IF) a list of the "Wedding 1918" medal recipients turns up...

and stranger things have happened.

Just look at all the progress the Guild of Research Gnomes has made in the last 2 years!!!! :ninja:

[Claudio]

@ Paul: you might certainely use my pictures for your thread...

@ Rick: I wasn't aware that the Wedding 1918 Jubilee medal's list existed... maybe I could also confirm the identity of this other medal bar's recipient:

[Guest Rick Research]

I didn't know you had ended up with that one.

One-of-two from the awards-- and no photo of either guy (so far) to sort 'em out.

I'm sure they must have kept one-- it was a Household Budget item, and there were award documents:

The very first awards above were "bearer" DOCUMENTS, given to attendees ("Dear Sir") at Ludwig III's funeral in 1921, but must have been addressed on the envelopes

Anybody know the current head of the Royal House to have his Archivist... rummage around? :catjava:

[Bernd D]

Rick,

there are lots of MVO4x with golden centre after 1917. Here are the numbers for non-Bavarian?s:

1917 - gold 530 - silver gilt 67

1918 - g 711 - sg 106

1919 - none

1920 - g 13 - sg 5

1921 - g 13

Of course there are much more for Bavarian officers, nearly every Lt - Hptm got one, but there are still a huge number of MVO?s with golden centre after 1917.

[Guest Rick Research]

Bernd-- how can you tell what type was handed out to the recipient? Was not the change to silver gilt... about November /December 1916?

Is it safe to say, then, that ALL silver gilt ones date from... 1918+ ?

I have been trying to identify my own Mystery Bar for years without being able to match up a late BMV4X to the SA3aX (so he was certainly a Captain when he got that one):

Rick

[Bernd D]

Rick, it is in the rolls. After each recipient is a stamp -silver gilt ? or not. And it is 99% correct.

I think you will have lots to read by the end of 2009.

It is safe to say all silver gilt ones are after 1917.

Bernd

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: Bernd-- you are a marvel !!!!!

In the rolls I have worked on, some have the COST of each Order as it was sent out... but not whether one or another was gold or not.

:jumping:

[Paul C]

Of special note on Claudio's Bayern medal bar is that even though the rolls for the MMO are available they only start at Hauptman and up.

[Guest Rick Research]

Until we all have Bernd's work next year. There is only 1 Prussian BMV4X listed in 1918 in Roth's published roll, for instance!

2009 will be as terrific as 2008 for NEW ROLLS !!!!!!!! :jumping:

[Ulsterman]

...and I am already budgeting for their purchases(s)! :jumping:

[VtwinVince]

That's a great set, Claudio, congratulations on another very nice addition.

[Bernd D]

Of special note on Claudio's Bayern medal bar is that even though the rolls for the MMO are available they only start at Hauptman and up.

That is nonsence. There is and was no reason to exclude Lt?s and Olt?s from the rolls.

Everybody who received a MVO or MVK is listed.

Only Roth started in his book with Hptm because he did not want to write down about 27.000 names for the 4x in WWI. It is the same with me. I skipped the 24.000 Bavarian officers, Lt - Hptm, who got it, because there are only a few left who don?t get one during WWI. Free MVO4x for all. I think the 3.500 others are much more interesting.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Bernd D

[Guest Rick Research]

That's all Paul meant. The available "Erhard" rolls published 10 years ago are only Hauptleute up...

but the "Bernd" 2009 rolls will be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better!!!

Rick

[Paul C]

Bernd, thank you for the clarification. I am by no means an expert and always apprecaite additional information.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Do the rolls with the Bavarian LTs have ther unit? I have a family (wifes) on to a realtive, only have his name and all his medals, but not his unit. :-(