Tim B Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 I see this thread is over a year since last entry so thought I would ask a question here and revive it a bit.I have an item that uses a one piece center applied over the black enamel. If you look carefully where I highlighted the points in green, you can see the lion is connected to the red scripted area and the whole center is actually mounted over the black enamel. The lion has great detail but is quite thin in base material.Any ideas?Tim
farmer Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) Hi Tim,With so many manufacturers of this Order, there were a great deal of variants in the details. As a very general summation, the one piece ribband-lion centres were normally found on the insignia of the higher classes (GC/GO/Com). Also, the older (some of the earlier Belgian and French manufactured examples) are often seen with this feature but of higher quality workmanship. Photo of my pre 1869, French manufactured Knight class with gold centre below.Your example would likely be of considerably more recent vintage but quite interesting never the less. Edited September 5, 2015 by farmer
Tim B Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Hi farmer,Yes, its hard to compete with the quality of any order manufactured pre-1900. Still, the quality of the enamel on this one is rather nice with a even translucent green that is much more appealing than some of later manufacture. What was interesting to me is the one piece ribband-lion center. Prior to this example, I have only seen the lion separately applied to the black centers.If you look closely at my example above, you can see the upper paw was accidently folded under the lion during the manufacturing/assembly process. Unfortunately, it cannot be moved at this point as the metal is too thin. I purposely did not show the reverse as it has the letter "I" often associated with Wolfers but I honestly don't know if that's accurate information anymore?Thank you for responding! Tim
ost-da Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Hello, dear friends!Please help determine the time of manufacture of the order.
farmer Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Tim, I think your was probably DeGreef's work - I have a couple examples that are identical and are cased (DeGreef firm stamp on the box). Usage of 'I' was not limited only to Wolfers, DeGreef and also other manufacturers used it (Chobillon in France too). Ost-da, in my opinion your Officer was likely made between 1950s and as late as 1970s. The Knight is much earlier. Long swords appeared officially after 1905 and this crown style was only commonly used by a couple of manufacturers. I would date your piece anytime between early WW1 and WW2.
ost-da Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, farmer said: Ost-da, in my opinion your Officer was likely made between 1950s and as late as 1970s Thank you so much! The Roman one, may be on the reverse of the order of this period? Edited January 15, 2016 by ost-da
ost-da Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 10 hours ago, farmer said: The Knight is much earlier. Long swords appeared officially after 1905 and this crown style was only commonly used by a couple of manufacturers. I would date your piece anytime between early WW1 and WW2. Unless that crown is not 1880?
farmer Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 This crown 'type' was never linked to a particular vintage. It appeared in 1981 Borne's Belgian reference book but without much credence in regard to the years used (just a common belief as was circulated at the time of writing). I own examples with such crown used with the post-1951 centres. In reality, Borne's so called "elargi, aplati,classique" crowns are just variants of a similar crown - all produced from late 1880s and into 1960s by at least 6 manufacturers. Get yourself a copy of Antti Ruokonen's book (Orders of Belgium), there is an extensive reference to crowns used with this order. You have to also consider other aspects of the insignia, manufacturers and a host of other features before one can make a reasonable educated statement regarding the period of usage. This topic is very deep, I am happy to give you my opinion (having researched and collected this Order for nearly 35 years and having several hundred examples in my collection).
Westdiep911 Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 19 hours ago, ost-da said: And this please date
ost-da Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 2 hours ago, farmer said: This crown 'type' was never linked to a particular vintage. It appeared in 1981 Borne's Belgian reference book but without much credence in regard to the years used (just a common belief as was circulated at the time of writing). I own examples with such crown used with the post-1951 centres. In reality, Borne's so called "elargi, aplati,classique" crowns are just variants of a similar crown - all produced from late 1880s and into 1960s by at least 6 manufacturers. Get yourself a copy of Antti Ruokonen's book (Orders of Belgium), there is an extensive reference to crowns used with this order. You have to also consider other aspects of the insignia, manufacturers and a host of other features before one can make a reasonable educated statement regarding the period of usage. This topic is very deep, I am happy to give you my opinion (having researched and collected this Order for nearly 35 years and having several hundred examples in my collection). Thank you, you helped me a lot. Will share their knowledge with colleagues on the hobby in their country.I asked you about the Roman one the orders with the motto in both languages. Could it be? I thought a Roman only one on order to WW2.
farmer Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 I am not sure I follow: "I asked you about the Roman one the orders with the motto in both languages. Could it be? I thought a Roman only one on order to WW2. " If you mean the French only inscriptions vs French and Flemish - dual languages were used after 1951 statutes revision.
ost-da Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 2 hours ago, farmer said: If you mean the French only inscriptions vs French and Flemish - dual languages were used after 1951 statutes revision My question. Number one may be on the reverse side of the order after 1951?
Jef Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Hello Gents, Wondering if anyone has a spare lion for sale. Would like to restore this beauty kind regards, Jef
farmer Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 10 hours ago, ost-da said: My question. Number one may be on the reverse side of the order after 1951? Yes. 3 hours ago, Jef said: Hello Gents, Wondering if anyone has a spare lion for sale. Would like to restore this beauty kind regards, Jef Jef, You need a Heremans's lion. Sending you a pm.
ost-da Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 13 hours ago, farmer said: 39 minutes ago, farmer said: Yes. Thank you. In Russia I think that number one, the beginning of the 20th century (after 1909).
ost-da Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Please tell me in which period is the mark on silver?
farmer Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Hi, You cannot date any of the L1 orders by the 'I' numeral alone on the reverse. As to the mark, became official after 1946.
ost-da Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 28 minutes ago, farmer said: Hi, You cannot date any of the L1 orders by the 'I' numeral alone on the reverse. As to the mark, became official after 1946. Once again, thank you very much!
VC89 Posted May 15, 2016 Posted May 15, 2016 On 13-1-2016 at 23:30, farmer said: The Knight is much earlier. Long swords appeared officially after 1905 and this crown style was only commonly used by a couple of manufacturers. Hi Farmer, Thanks for sharing all your knowledge with us. I didn't knew that about the longer swords, that they are used (officially) since 1905. Where did you find that information? I looked in some of the books I posses but I can't find it anywhere. Same at the internet (except in this topic). Vincent
g_deploige Posted May 16, 2016 Posted May 16, 2016 The Mark A900 is the Silver Mark A1000= 100% silver The other mark is the makers mark of the House Paul De Greef http://www.p-degreef.com/en/home.aspx
Graf Posted August 7, 2016 Posted August 7, 2016 Hi I just added a very interesting old model of the Order of Leopold -Officer Class in Gold It has the crown of an early Charles J. Buls with typical Buls mark on the ribbon ring however the body including the central medallions are from J.G. Dutalis The cross has 2 marks one is a round one not known to me the other looks like French eagle head or Belgium horse head The weight and the size are the same as Dutalis Orders 16 Grams and 39 mm wide Here is the new Order together with an early Knight by Charles J. Buls to compare
VC89 Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) Ending with Buls in 2016 and reviving this topic with him (I hope) I bought this knight in the Order of Leopold and believes it it from Ch. Buls (ca. 1845 - 1880s). Unfortunatly I can't decipher the silvermark. I checked it with A. Ruokonen's book "Spirit of the lion" and it seems to match, at least to me, with Charles Buls. I hope someone can verify this or disprove this. Kind Regards, Vincent Edited July 20, 2017 by VC89
Graf Posted August 20, 2017 Posted August 20, 2017 Hi Vincent It is the late second type of C. Buls If you look my post from 7th of August you can see the 1st type on the left from the Commander Cross and the 2nd type on the right The Commander Crosses and the Grand Cordon Crosses by Buls always came with the 1st type crown as seen on the picture Sometime they have marks, however many times they are not marked Best Graf
farmer Posted October 17, 2017 Posted October 17, 2017 VC, Just saw your post. I think I can make out the 'sword' silver hallmark on the crown and another one punched to the wreath ties, this assures your cross was manufactured (but not necessarily awarded) prior to 1869. Eyelet mark appears to be partial Buls's mark. Nice cross, too bad the lion is somewhat fatigued.
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